Illegals fighting against AZ law?

[Jokersvirus]

I just saw this up on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLlW1-R47E8&feature=fvhl

From what it sounds illegals are trying to fight saying they have rights yet they are here illegally? I know immigrates have rights thats all fine and cool, which i dont know any of their rights, but how can someone who illegally jumped the border enter the US say You are no right to enforce this law or even have it??

[Jaykub]

http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/topics/irony.jpg

[Jokersvirus]

very nicely put.

[LiNuX]

They can't really do much. They can't even vote the public officials out of office. I don't think this will get very far. But this may just be a way to get other stats and perhaps the federal government involved in the matter and that could have a decent effect for them.

[Jokersvirus]

If they truely try to fight this they will be shot down deported, but will return to the us within 3 weeks or so.

[BobTD]

I cant believe most peoples attitudes on illegal immigrants. I think we all grew up with a little to much if we have no sympathy for people just trying to feed their families.

I think we should have a work entry program for the US, bring over families living in poverty and have them work here, basically for free and cover their room and board for two years.

If at that time they have learned enough English and are able and willing we give them training in a profession in the positions that we need more skilled labor for. Creating jobs has the beneficial effect of, creating more jobs.

If we are going to keep the statue of liberty standing, with those words that so many of our grandparents had etched into their souls, then maybe we should strive to be better then the way we have been acting. Why are we so fast to say, "fuc'k them they where born poor" as if that makes us entitled to so much more.

The only people who deserve anything are those willing to work for it.

[Rachel]

i'm completly fine with illegal immigrants.
they are very hard workers, and actually some really cool people.
but they also sometimes stuff our bodies with drugs and smuggle us across the border.
but thats splitting hairs. they're pretty cool.

[Jokersvirus]

I cant believe most peoples attitudes on illegal immigrants. I think we all grew up with a little to much if we have no sympathy for people just trying to feed their families.

I think we should have a work entry program for the US, bring over families living in poverty and have them work here, basically for free and cover their room and board for two years.

If at that time they have learned enough English and are able and willing we give them training in a profession in the positions that we need more skilled labor for. Creating jobs has the beneficial effect of, creating more jobs.

If we are going to keep the statue of liberty standing, with those words that so many of our grandparents had etched into their souls, then maybe we should strive to be better then the way we have been acting. Why are we so fast to say, "fuc'k them they where born poor" as if that makes us entitled to so much more.

The only people who deserve anything are those willing to work for it.

True enough people who deserve anything work for it.

If they want to come here and live in the US they need to do what you say, learn English, get training in a profession etc etc.

But they have to do all of this before they come over here. Dont feel like hearing on the news some immigrations came over were suppose to get some training and ran.

Find a better way to act towards illegals? Sorry I have no pity for them, they illegally entered this country and are taking jobs. Argument has been made they take jobs Americans dont wait. You should watch the show Dirty Jobs.
Faster the AZ law gets placed in every other state the faster illegals will be fired and Americans will be hired.

Bob, fix your quote at the end you shouldnt have to break the curse filter just to make a point ;)

[Samus-Fan]

Bob, you're messed up in the head.
Keyword there is ILLEGAL.
ILLEGAL means they shouldn't be here.
If they really wanna feed their families, either get a job in Mexico and stop stealing them from US Citizens who are here LEGALLY, or they can go through the paperwork and become a LEGAL citizen.

But I really think Illegal aliens are a big issue because most of them aren't just families feeding each other.
Its filled of Drug runners, terrorists, such and such.
Because they don't have to get checked out and have their baggage checked.
They can bring whatever they want here.
Illegally.
Just like them.
Being here illegally.

I have no problem with foreigners, as long as they do what everyone else has to do and become a legal citizen.
Because saying they should have rights is telling America that they are more important then legal citizens.

[LiNuX]

But I really think Illegal aliens are a big issue because most of them aren't just families feeding each other.
Its filled of Drug runners, terrorists, such and such.


That's a pretty big stereotype. Although it may be true, it's an inaccurate belief. Just because a few of them are bad, doesn't mean a majority of them are. Every group has that whether you're illegal, legal, alien, human, dog, cat, or an ipod. Everything that comes in mass has a few baddies.

The biggest drug runners and terrorists are governments and large corporations, and that's not a stereotype.

[Samus-Fan]

That's a pretty big stereotype. Although it may be true, it's an inaccurate belief. Just because a few of them are bad, doesn't mean a majority of them are. Every group has that whether you're illegal, legal, alien, human, dog, cat, or an ipod. Everything that comes in mass has a few baddies.

The biggest drug runners and terrorists are governments and large corporations, and that's not a stereotype.

I already knew our government was full of terrorists, but yes, I can say that.
It's a stereotype for you to stereotype me stereotyping.

Yes. Most of them are illegal because of the drugs and terrorists weapons.
If they had nothing to hide, they'd come here legally.

[LiNuX]

It's a stereotype for you to stereotype me stereotyping.


:eek1: I'm stereotyping you how exactly?




Most of them are illegal because of the drugs and terrorists weapons.
If they had nothing to hide, they'd come here legally.

I'm sure if they had the money and the government let them, they'd come here legally. And there are some that flee their country to avoid persecution, you know, the stuff the forefathers of this country did.

I don't think our definition of illegal immigrants is the same because in my definition, drugs and terrorism has nothing to do with it. That's on a completely different game board imo.

[Jokersvirus]

How can you tell if they are running or not? I could be an illegal and You would never know even if i got pulled over by the cops how can they check? they can access NCIC but that doesnt include mexico in the search.
No there is war going on down there in Mexico the drug cartels are out of control killing people left and right, going after Americans and Mexicans alike.
most illegals, if not vast majority of them, use drug runners to get across the border. So they themselves are being used to help carry drugs into the US by armed thugs who will shoot and kill anything that isnt one of them.
Like I said if people want to come ove here let them but they must do it legally this jumping the border crap is annoying. If you cant get a visa there are other countries.

My problem is with illegals harming law enforcement. Ive seen too many videos of it happening and its something that can be avoided before the illegal even comes over here.

[Jokersvirus]

In this day and age racial profiling is as simple as an officer getting on the radio and saying "I have a black male white shirt black pants running from me going north on bah bah"

Can you blame Americans for thinking that? In this day and age terror attack after terror attack in the US does some serious damage to us as Americans it starts with the parents and its passed on to us the children.

There is alot to know about terrorism but its off topic.

[Jokersvirus]

/facepalm

FBI Defintion of terrorism ".the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives"

The cold war was stand off between us and Russia. Everyone was scared someone was going to push the shiny red button and kill us all. And your thinking of spies.

I know for a fact that not all terrorist are middle eastern. The american public does not because they dont know what to believe anymore. 9/11 middle eastern people hijacked planes and attacked us dealing the single biggest blow to the US ever.

Dont blame the American public for being afraid.

and lets not continue this here I dont feel like getting an infraction, I just explained a few things to you.

[Rachel]

I don't blame them for being afraid! I blame them for being stupid! The only reason people were so shocked after 9/11 was because the US had never fallen victim to a homeland attack before! I'm not saying the attack on the world trades center was right, I'm just saying it was a wake up call for the american citizen. Now I know this sounds kind of stupid, but the Video game "Modern Warfare 2" had a pretty good image of what would AND CAN happen to america if someone was to attack us. We have protocol and fallbacks, but we're not really ready. Untill war is declared on OUR SOIL, I don't think we'll ever be.

They took many lives. But we destroyed them.
There is a reason people don't screw with us.

[Jokersvirus]

I don't blame them for being afraid! I blame them for being stupid! The only reason people were so shocked after 9/11 was because the US had never fallen victim to a homeland attack before!


Im not going to get into a rant about this but:

Okbom
93 world trade
Several attacks from ELF and ALF.

We have been the target before, just not on the level of what happened that day.

Pretty much we are a issue to AQ, Taliban, and others. But their main targets is the jews. Those extremist hate them so they are going after them first and they will deal with us later.

mainly OBL, AQ, and Taliban are our biggest threat because OBL has control over AQ since it is his FTO and Taliban he funds.

[BobTD]

Yes. Most of them are illegal because of the drugs and terrorists weapons.
If they had nothing to hide, they'd come here legally.

And this is why you should stay in school kids.

You know what I kind of missed being insulted on the internet. It gives me the chance to intelligently argue a point and creates a feeling.. kind of like protecting the world from ignorance. Im like a MF'ing super hero.


Bob, you're messed up in the head.
Keyword there is ILLEGAL.
ILLEGAL means they shouldn't be here.
If they really wanna feed their families, either get a job in Mexico and stop stealing them from US Citizens who are here LEGALLY, or they can go through the paperwork and become a LEGAL citizen.

But I really think Illegal aliens are a big issue because most of them aren't just families feeding each other.


Please dont insult my opinion before you do your homework, you could enlighten yourself with a simple google search.

Lets address each of the highlighted portions I have quoted from you so we can understand why I think you have no footing to claim Im "messed up in the head".

"get a job in Mexico and stop stealing them from US Citizens" First of all (seeing as you addressed jobs in mexico and stealing from us citizens in the same breath), let me state that coming to america and finding a job is not stealing. Its survival, and I think its imoral to condem people for looking for honest work even by breaking the law to do so. Governments are not inherently moral. But lets look at the reasons we have illigals in america:


The Mexican economy’s inability to generate jobs has become a chronic problem.

http://www.wharton.universia.net/index.cfm?fa=viewfeature&id=1026&language=english

Saying they are criminals for wanting work is... almost raciest. Why cant they have jobs like the rest of us again? Please explain.

"go through the paperwork and become a LEGAL citizen." You would think that this would be the first thing people would try. Oh wait it usually is:


Analysts believe that costs, delays, and inefficiencies in processing visa applications and work permits contribute to the number of immigrants who immigrate without authorization. As of 2007 there was a backlog of 1.1 million green card applications, and the typical waiting time was three years.[32]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#Number_of _illegal_immigrants

I think your opinion would be drastically different if you didn't have the advantages of being born in the US. And considering you think they are all terrorists smuggling weapons I will assume you are a very, very sheltered Caucasian. Please let me know if Im wrong. =)


most of them aren't just families feeding each other. In general, most illegal immigrants ARE trying to feed their families. This can be confirmed by the amount of money sent to Mexican household through various banking services. (I have sent money to Honduras for a friend before so I got to look at a lot of options). This is addressed by the USA's policy of immigrating families over as a priority over skilled labor, creating... more unskilled labor. But If you already forgot it wasnt even a few years ago bush was telling all of us on national TV that we needed more unskilled labor. (I will look for it on youtube, but its not really central to my point)

Now here is a small bump, a lot of them do smuggles drugs, but its really hard to confirm how many, and its usually related to the price they pay to have Coyote's smuggles them over the boarder, for some insight to this topic you could try reading this debate:


In the debate, Jette said that most people who cross illegally into Arizona are "just trying to feed their families."

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/06/25/20100625arizona-governor-says-most-illegal-immigrants-smuggle-drugs.html

Please feel free to use internet resources to backup your opinion when arguing. There is plenty on both sides, but I really have a hard time accepting biased or ignorant opinion from anyone and will probably point out your inaccuracies in a methodical and drawn out post.

=P

(also, I don't aim to insult you Samus-fan, your probably a great guy and I enjoy reading posts from you. Its your opinion on this topic I'm bashing, and feel free to take shots back. I look forward it)

[Jokersvirus]

But the issue here bob is that someone who is an illegal alien, well group of illegals, are trying to fight AZ law saying its not right for them to do that.

It makes no logical sense, your here illegally and yet you want to fight a law that will get you in trouble.

[BobTD]

But the issue here bob is that someone who is an illegal alien, well group of illegals, are trying to fight AZ law saying its not right for them to do that.

It makes no logical sense, your here illegally and yet you want to fight a law that will get you in trouble.

There are more ways to fight a law then through legal recourse. They illegal immigrants found a much more intelligent way of fighting the law. The focus of the main article was the posted video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLlW1-R47E8

What you see here is someone reaching out through viral advertising for support from people across the USA. And the result?

The power of the internet, BEHOLD:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUQMxLIuJUM&NR=1

OMG, the UN opposes this new law?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsdzsaTudJo&feature=related

Stops traffic?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXoql9idA-Q&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ah4zO_Dp4g&feature=related

Religious leaders get involved?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6s25q49oYHA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azsn1TZJ5jM&feature=related

CAL student (lol)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X51IWdQaQG4&feature=related

Believe me... they found a way to fight back.

[Jokersvirus]

Its stupid this is America but they arent here legally so they have no right to fight any law that pertains to them.

People can support hating the AZ law, all fine and whatnot, but still. Whats the big deal over it?

In a way if you think about it, the AZ law says for every business owner who has an illegal they get charged 500 per illegal working for them. Kinda sounds like to me they support hiring illegals over americans.

ya ya it lowers cost and increases profit, but it doesnt make it right.

[BobTD]

Lots of business cant compete with the products made overseas in sweat shops of with the large franchises. Good quality doesn't always win out over visibility and availability. My earlier idea of running work camps to allow immigrants to earn citizenship would allow us to do something about that.

If we are producing exportable goods for a low cost that helps our economy, increases spending and creates jobs. Our lack of ability to compete with low wage jobs would be offset tremendously if willing volunteers came to work for free to become american.

And how much would we benefit from receiving all the determined survivors currently living in poverty. Its that spirit that america was born with, people who had nothing to loose came here and worked their hardest.

Im not saying I like the fact that immigration laws are broken, Im saying spreading hate and putting up walls wont fix it. Im saying they are people to and we should find a way to benefit both sides.

[Samus-Fan]

I'm gonna take a wild guess and go and say BobTD is a democrat.
Anyone disagree?

Bob, you're completely missing the point.
This isn't a racism issue.
If it was white Canadians crossing the border into Minnesota illegally, people would be upset.
But it isn't Canada, it's Mexico, and I'm sorry, but anyone who comes into a country ILLEGALLY, I don't care if the paperwork is 5 years, if they come here illegally, they are breaking the law and should be sent to jail or back home.
I don't care the conditions.
If Immigrants in the 1800's were fleeing from famine, war, and being jobless, they still filled out paperwork and came here legally.

[Muffincat]

If Immigrants in the 1800's were fleeing from famine, war, and being jobless, they still filled out paperwork and came here legally.

I don't think that is accurate o.o

[Samus-Fan]

I don't think that is accurate o.o

?
The Census Population of US Immigrants
1790 3,918,000 60,000
1800 5,236,000 60,000
1810 7,036,000 60,000
1820 10,086,000 60,000
1830 12,785,000 143,000
1840 17,018,000 599,000
1850 23,054,000 1,713,000

It didn't grow like crazy for nothing

[Jokersvirus]

Samus is correct the issue is illegals jumping the border taking jobs making it harder on people born in the US to get jobs because those illegals will work for next to nothing.

[LiNuX]

It's not their choice to work for next to nothing, it's the employers taking advantage of the fact that they are here illegally. They pay them as low as possible because they know their workers won't complain to anyone about it because they'd end up getting in trouble.

So...don't blame the immigrants, blame the people that hire them for giving away the jobs that US citizens/residents are "entitled" to.

[Jokersvirus]

exactly why they need to enforce AZ law around the country. You, a business owner, hiring illegals instead of americans or legalized aliens, you should have to pay.

[Muffincat]

?
The Census Population of US Immigrants
1790 3,918,000 60,000
1800 5,236,000 60,000
1810 7,036,000 60,000
1820 10,086,000 60,000
1830 12,785,000 143,000
1840 17,018,000 599,000
1850 23,054,000 1,713,000

It didn't grow like crazy for nothing

....I meant, I don't think they all came here with proper paper work. o.O


Also, hey guys, maybe you should learn something from the illegals; I mean, hey, they work dirt cheap, and are still able to afford rent here AND send money back home to their families ;P

[Jokersvirus]

I dont like learning, it hurts my brain muffin

[BobTD]

exactly why they need to enforce AZ law around the country. You, a business owner, hiring illegals instead of americans or legalized aliens, you should have to pay.

The law sucks because it can be easily abused. They already have a problem with the way minorities are treated in Arizona and this law means you can lock someone up for several days without reason, on top o f a list of other moral issues.

How would you like it if whites where the minority, and most cops where Hispanic and you have to worry about spending time in the jail for not carrying proof that you where a citizen on you at all time?

Also, Im not a democrat. Just to be clear.

[Jokersvirus]

From my understanding they can lock you up if they cant verify if you are legal or not. Thats no different then being locked up by police for "failure to ID."

Well whites are becoming the minority, and i remember reading something that says we have to get a federal ID that states we are or are not a flight risk.

honestly I wouldnt have a problem with it, I would gladly show them my ID.

The law makes sense we have issues with illegals coming into this country and AZ said f it we are doing this. Think of it like this...

You say its immoral for this law to be in effect, so you would be ok with someone illegally entering your house?

Its the same but on a larger scale, and the answer would be no, so why would you be fine with illegals coming into the country? Yes they want to find a new life for their family but why dont you do it legally? Is it so hard to do paperwork instead of jumping the border.

I think its still worth making jumping the border a federal crime. That way the illegals get a home, food, and everything else they need.

and No I dont hate aliens, I hate those who rather break the law instead of trying to do it the right way.

[BobTD]

exactly why they need to enforce AZ law around the country. You, a business owner, hiring illegals instead of americans or legalized aliens, you should have to pay.

The law sucks because it can be easily abused. They already have a problem with the way minorities are treated in Arizona and this law means you can lock someone up for several days without reason, on top o f a list of other moral issues.

How would you like it if whites where the minority, and most cops where Hispanic and you have to worry about spending time in the jail for not carrying proof that you where a citizen on you at all time?




I'm gonna take a wild guess and go and say BobTD is a democrat.
Anyone disagree?[quote]

Also, Im not a democrat. Just to be clear. If I where I would be trying to sympathize with low income families who claim Mexicans are stealing jobs but still don't want to clean toilets for a living. I'm suggesting work programs and securing american rights.

[QUOTE=Samus-Fan;229261]Bob, you're completely missing the point.
This isn't a racism issue.
If it was white Canadians crossing the border into Minnesota illegally, people would be upset.
But it isn't Canada, it's Mexico, and I'm sorry, but anyone who comes into a country ILLEGALLY, I don't care if the paperwork is 5 years, if they come here illegally, they are breaking the law and should be sent to jail or back home.
I don't care the conditions.
If Immigrants in the 1800's were fleeing from famine, war, and being jobless, they still filled out paperwork and came here legally.


The only country Idaho boarders is canada, and Idaho passed a similar law to Arizona's. so maybe there is a problem with canadians. =P

Illegal Canadians - SFGate (http://articles.sfgate.com/2010-05-21/entertainment/20907734_1_idaho-legislature-canadians-idaho-bill)

But in all seriousness, its really not fair how I can use the internet to counter anything you say. Its not even fair anymore I don't even have to use credible sources because you either don't read my posts or don't comprehend them.

I want to point out I said "ALMOST" racist to get you to really think about weather you had good reasoning behind your logic. And you come back to me and say I don't understand the debate because its not a racism issue. At this point I cant even assume you read my whole post because thats not what I focused on.

It like the high school debate team all over again, where you get on stage and your opponent slams you with a strong argument. And you just say "Nu uh"?

Anything else you want to say?

(I am of course assuming the rest of your post was meant as a joke, no one came here illegally and stopped to fill out paperwork, census estimates are clearly just estimates and may have confused you)