Mosque wanting to be build 2 blocks away from Ground zero

[Jokersvirus]

Have you guys heard about Obama saying it should be allowed to let the muslims build a place of worship about two blocks away from ground zero and where the new tower will stand someday?

Im just interested in what your thoughts are about this.

Me, People have the right to worship anywhere they want, but to americans I think that is adding insult to injury by letting them do that. Some hardcore right wing nuts might see this as a provocation and might result in violence against the muslims.

[Jaykub]

I don't believe a church of any kind should be built within a block. Every building surrounding the former site of the world trade centers should be nothing but a memorial for what happened. They already have enough trash around it.

[Rachel]

I believe it is fine.

[LiNuX]

I heard about it, no big comment from me though. Maybe if I was religious in any direction I might have something to say but otherwise to me it would be just another building in that area that I won't walk into (or have to walk into).


to americans I think that is adding insult to injury by letting them do that. Some hardcore right wing nuts might see this as a provocation and might result in violence against the muslims.

Sadly that's true. Why can't we all just get along? Fought so many wars over religion, it's pathetic.

[HamadaLFC8]

Alright guys I'm muslim :P as we all know or maybe not

But I think it's a bit ... I dunno over the line. :/ Even thought I believe that 9/11 was an inside job most people still believe that it was some crazy arab maniacs :/

But I agree with slipknot I don't think any religious building should be built in that area.
But after all America is the land of the free so if they have the money they should be allowed to built it but I still wouldn't do it ....

[Jaykub]

Alright guys I'm muslim :P as we all know or maybe not

But I think it's a bit ... I dunno over the line. :/ Even thought I believe that 9/11 was an inside job most people still believe that it was some crazy arab maniacs :/

But I agree with slipknot I don't think any religious building should be built in that area.
But after all America is the land of the free so if they have the money they should be allowed to built it but I still wouldn't do it ....

Very well said! My main reason is it would be unfair to every other religion which would be terrible for america.

[Muffincat]

Maybe they should just build every kind of religious building around it ;P

[Jaykub]

Maybe they should just build every kind of religious building around it ;P

That would be a great sign of peace but I highly doubt any religious building will be built there.

[BocReaper]

I say no. It should just be a memorial honoring everyone that died. Nothing else should be built there regardless of what it is.

[Jokersvirus]

I wish we had the ability to get along, but people... I guess are so "faithful" to what they believe that any other religion is just total crap.

New york doesnt have the best record with Mosque.

One of them, I know the name but cant spell it, was the sight of plots for a few terrorist attacks

[BobTD]

I want to weigh in by saying anyone who has an opinion about what should be built two blocks away is only making the problem worse.

The problem being that we are drawing attention to something that isnt a problem. Something that in order to stop would require New York City to break the law and violate constitutional rights.

And it may deeply affect our future and bring to light our true character as a nation.


I say no. It should just be a memorial honoring everyone that died. Nothing else should be built there regardless of what it is.

Its two blocks away. Currently their is already a local Muslim church that is so overcrowded that people end up worshiping on the street in front of it. They have waited almost ten years to build this "interfaith" church, two blocks away from ground zero, and not even within line of sight because of all the giant buildings.

The owner of the property spent 7million dollars on it. And the man has rights, if he wants to open up a public place of worship its within his constitutional freedom.

There where many muslims that dies in the twin towers, and building a church of any faith is a proper responce. Currently people act like this didnt happent ot he muslim families that lost loved ones, like they dont have the right to grieve or build a holy place to gather after a world changin event.

I have to admit I tend to go against to flow with a lot of public opion. But that lack of real thought the majority of people put into the duality of this situation is painful.

How can we be so hubris means extreme haughtiness or arrogance. Hubris often indicates being out of touch with reality and overestimating one's own competence or capabilities, especially for people in positions of power. as to even think it within our right to deny another faith their freedom when our country is founded on freedom of religion?!

Even better yet, would be if we built a mosque right on ground zero. How hard do you think it would be for an extremist to portray us as self serving and evil if we could display that kind of compassion?

The ideology and self importance that gets in the way of rational thought in this nation is a sickness. Its a very real and tangible thing, and its very evident by the fact that some people are opposing the freedom of others to worship as we would DEMAND if we where in their shoes.

As you can tell I have very strong feeling on the matter. I read an article in news week at work and I was mad all day afterward. This is me venting.

[BocReaper]

Bob no one is arguing they don't have the right. At no point has any sane person said they don't have the right to worship. That's just the general argument that people use back to inflame the argument further and prevent discourse.
The issue, do you think it won't get burnt down? Do you think the rest of the nation is going to distinguish between Muslims and Muslim radicals? Do you think it won't create violence in the area? It's far more likely those things will happen just because of how people are.
And if building a church is proper response for those lost, why not make it a communal church for all local religions as there were probably quite a few different religions worshiped by the workers. That promotes unity, acceptance, spread of culture and idea, and shows a true tolerance of all the religions. Is that not far better than excluding every other religion so one can worship?

[BobTD]

And if building a church is proper response for those lost, why not make it a communal church for all local religions as there were probably quite a few different religions worshiped by the workers.

The idea behind my statement is that any church is appropriate. That religion itself is the only place someone can look for comfort in the wake of such a tragedy. I dont mind who does it, as long as they spend their own money.

Why doesnt a collaboration of churches spend a few million dollars to help build the church then? Oh, because its two blocks away and not important until museums try to worship there. *sigh*

This is one mans attempt to address the issue of inadequate room for Muslims to worship properly. He paid for the property a long time ago why do we now have an opinion about what should be built two blocks away? Opposing something thats not even on ground zero purely because its related to Muslims is the same as blaming them.

The fact that everyone calls it a mosque at ground zero is wrong itself, meant to make people angry. Its scapegoating.

And there are people who oppose it, thats why its news. I think there is already a church for Muslims (I say church for Muslim and not "an Islamic church" because its an interfaith church) in the area and it hasent been burned down. I think if we hadent made this into a big deal they would have been safer.

And while no one has come out and said "they dont have the right" the general idea that it shouldn't be done has prevented it from moving forward for this long already. The way I understand it, it is going to be built and soon. But the fact that it has been planned for so long and now we hear about it is almost like some people are hoping they will become afraid and back out.

Personally, even if I often criticize all religion (at any chance I get) I respect that they aspire not to let fear rule them. I think they will build the church knowing full well that further debate on the matter draws unwanted attention. They would have been perfectly happy being unnoticed.

Its like placing powder kegs near a place you are worried about fire starting. So now we are back to my opening lines.

[BocReaper]

Yes the other mosques have been there for a long time. I'm personally amazed they didn't get taken apart by angry citizens after 9/11. The fact this new mosque is going up is going to create problem for all the other local mosques as well. While it isn't their fault that this issue made headlines, they'll suffer because no one wants to back down.

Right now the country needs all the different religions to calm down. Now, while it's not exactly right to gyp the people who owned the land out of the ability to construct it there a little compromise can go a long way. Perhaps the city could work with them to find land situated in the same area but further away that they could be given? A gesture like that would show the Mosque owner understands the intense nature of the issue. Americans could in turn not flip out and try to learn more about the nature of the religion? It's not exactly perfect but there are a million ways to compromise to help diffuse the situation. I'm sure the locals could find something to get everyone calmed down. A pure stubborn reaction from either side doesn't help understanding though. It just promotes a greater rift between the religions.

As for the churches burning Korans, while it is their right to do that as well it displays massive ignorance that shouldn't exist. They should rather be reading them to look for similarities and ways to get along better with Muslims.

I'd personally propose that they work to turn the Mosque into a multi-religion center where the various religions can gather to learn more. A way to show them they're all similar people who just believe differently. Maybe they could learn from each other and reduce tensions. Who knows, I just feel it's better for everyone to give a bit right now and work together.

[BobTD]

I'd personally propose that they work to turn the Mosque into a multi-religion center where the various religions can gather to learn more. A way to show them they're all similar people who just believe differently. Maybe they could learn from each other and reduce tensions. Who knows, I just feel it's better for everyone to give a bit right now and work together.

The spirit of what you are arguing is commendable. But you still aren't considering that there are people who need a solemn place to worship. Who dont share the same religion but have suffered the same tragedy. Trying to focus on our similarities isnt the same as accepting they arent the reason behind this tragedy.


Yes the other mosques have been there for a long time. I'm personally amazed they didn't get taken apart by angry citizens after 9/11. The fact this new mosque is going up is going to create problem for all the other local mosques as well. While it isn't their fault that this issue made headlines, they'll suffer because no one wants to back down.

Why would anyone blame them in the first place? At what time did the Islamic religion become the terrorist forces you seem to think are related to them? Do the angry bible burners in Florida condemn christians with that single act? Should there be the same concern if a Christian purchases property to build a church near Jerusalem?

Anyone who faces facts knows whats right and wrong. And opposing the building of a mosque two blocks away from ground zero is wrong.

[BocReaper]

Yes I understand they need a place to worship and grieve as does everyone. Say if the center is built people or the city pay for the construction of a Mosque nearby to support that need as a gesture of understanding since they are giving up much to allow it. It is not ideal I know, but I think we can all agree it would greatly help to ease tensions. Even offering to provide land further away, but still in the same area for a Mosque to be built would greatly ease tensions. None of it will ever happen though because each side is being far to stubborn to allow it to happen. In effect both are fighting for total victory, but that "victory" will be a loss for everyone.

No rational person is saying Muslims are the main terrorist source. When people try to accuse others of not making the distinction it can lead to further issues. Now, there are plenty of times when that is correct, and it's usually obvious when the distinction isn't made. Just look at the bumper stickers of confederates. The ones that say "I learned all I needed to know about Islam on 9/11". They are not making a distinction and need to make it to help promote a better image of America. Still, they can not be forced to do that. That's the thing with freedom, you take the good and the bad no matter who is in the wrong.

Now, it's the Muslim extremists that are terrorists, just like any religious extremist can be. The issue is people only read the negative parts of the Koran to support that theory thus promoting hate. Interestingly, the Koran both hails Christians as excellent people while also calling for their death. People choose to ignore the good parts to justify their hatred of Muslims. These Muslim extremists warp the religion as well to support their plans. It's much like the Crusades. A massive misuse of religion to justify violence that should never be repeated or embraced as the main stream view of either religion.

[BobTD]

Not to be picky, but its the Islamic extremists that are terrorists, they can be any culture, not just Muslim. Im sure we both knew that already. I use the term Muslum a lot because there are secular differences within Islam that I'm not sure can be summed up by just referring to Islam as a whole.

I guess my biggest point here, is that its not Muslim's that need to show understanding here. Its America. We can take away the fuel of hate extremists use by showing compassion even after something as terrible as 9/11. But we are wasting that opportunity.

And personally if I where an extremist I would hope the church would not be allowed to be built or that someone attacked it.

As for the crazy hypocrisy of religion:

You also have to notice that the bible calls for the death of pagans while also teaching peace and that murder is wrong.

I have a copy of the Koran and I should really read it more, but I would be surprised if one where more crazy then the other. (Im strongly rooted in the belief that both are crazy)

[Jokersvirus]

A multi religion center would be the answer. Instead of one religion which alot of red blooded angry americans see as the only terrorist religion, you bring everyone together. Religion is about peace and harmony. Why not bring everyone together, everyone was hurt that day, not just one group of people, or one type of religion it was felt by everyone in america.

Everyone has the right to a place of worship, but why limit it to one religion? Why not span it out and have many religions under one roof? The extremist wont like that but who cares what they think, all they do is go boom. haha, i made a funny..

Americans need to show understanding, America has by allowing the first amendment.

This is the best way to help one another out, which is needed, not support one religion over the others.

[glenofimaal]

Sadly that's true. Why can't we all just get along? Fought so many wars over religion, it's pathetic.

If i may, what would you consider "many wars to be"?

What percentage would be many?

[Jokersvirus]

One is too many glen.

[LiNuX]

If i may, what would you consider "many wars to be"?

What percentage would be many?

As joker said, one war is too many. But the crusades is one of the biggest examples and many of the wars before the middle ages were religion based. It's not just christians and muslims, you had the greeks, romans, egyptians, persians, etc...

Religion was the center of their reasoning.

[glenofimaal]

As joker said, one war is too many. But the crusades is one of the biggest examples and many of the wars before the middle ages were religion based. It's not just christians and muslims, you had the greeks, romans, egyptians, persians, etc...

Religion was the center of their reasoning.

It's pretty surprising, but only 7% of all the wars fought have been related to religion.

Source: Encyclopedia of Wars by Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod

They documented all wars dating back to the beginning of recorded history

Most wars are fought for other reasons.

[LiNuX]

Most recent wars have been fought for other reasons and there have been 100s of them over the past few centuries. But I'm still sticking to the idea that most wars in history have been fought with religion as the center of their reasoning.

[glenofimaal]

Most recent wars have been fought for other reasons and there have been 100s of them over the past few centuries. But I'm still sticking to the idea that most wars in history have been fought with religion as the center of their reasoning.

Okay, i'll believe what that book says :-)

[Jokersvirus]

Most religion wars are because someone else dont believe what someone else does.

Crusades is an example of this.

[BobTD]

It's pretty surprising, but only 7% of all the wars fought have been related to religion.

Source: Encyclopedia of Wars by Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod

They documented all wars dating back to the beginning of recorded history

Most wars are fought for other reasons.

You may be reading a hugely misleading book. One can argue that religion has never been the cause for any war but simply the excuse. Unless you can link me to solid info I wont take the word of a book I cant find.

Religion has certainly played a part in most of the historically documented wars we are aware of, even if it cant be singled out as the ultimate cause. So if you mistakenly are looking for wars that can be blamed on religion alone, then Im not surprised you would find a number like that.

War is a complex form of cultural exchange. And there are always multiple reasons that can be considered when looking as cause (though religions often help fund wars). And lets not forget that religion was more often the focus of daily life in the past. It was a part of every day living for just about everyone, and its hard to sell a war without appealing to such an important aspect of a persons life.

Religion and other ideologies are more often excuses (or tools used to fund and provide manpower, still a major cause) and less often the entire reason for a war. This does not, however, mean that religion does not weigh in heavily. So if religion is a factor in a war, then how large of a factor should it be before we count it according to your book?

If holly leaders take a stance in a war, then thats a major effect on that war. Considering that the church was a part of the ruling system most of history can not be forgotten either.

There are large periods of time where France and England where at war and unable to settle differences simply because of opposing religious views. They engaged in many wars, for their country's honor, or land or riches. But always religion was playing its part and keeping it going.

[glenofimaal]

You may be reading a hugely misleading book. One can argue that religion has never been the cause for any war but simply the excuse. Unless you can link me to solid info I wont take the word of a book I cant find.

Religion has certainly played a part in most of the historically documented wars we are aware of, even if it cant be singled out as the ultimate cause. So if you mistakenly are looking for wars that can be blamed on religion alone, then Im not surprised you would find a number like that.

War is a complex form of cultural exchange. And there are always multiple reasons that can be considered when looking as cause (though religions often help fund wars). And lets not forget that religion was more often the focus of daily life in the past. It was a part of every day living for just about everyone, and its hard to sell a war without appealing to such an important aspect of a persons life.

Religion and other ideologies are more often excuses (or tools used to fund and provide manpower, still a major cause) and less often the entire reason for a war. This does not, however, mean that religion does not weigh in heavily. So if religion is a factor in a war, then how large of a factor should it be before we count it according to your book?

If holly leaders take a stance in a war, then thats a major effect on that war. Considering that the church was a part of the ruling system most of history can not be forgotten either.

There are large periods of time where France and England where at war and unable to settle differences simply because of opposing religious views. They engaged in many wars, for their country's honor, or land or riches. But always religion was playing its part and keeping it going.

Encyclopedia of Wars, 3-Volume Set: Amazon.ca: Charles Phillips, Alan Axelrod: Books (http://www.amazon.ca/Encyclopedia-Wars-Set-Charles-Phillips/dp/0816028516)

It's three volumes and documents around 1800 wars......

There's a description of the book towards the bottom of the page ;)

[LiNuX]

Every book is biased. Same with the knowledge Bob and I seem to have about wars which is on the opposite spectrum of the encyclopedia guys.

[glenofimaal]

Every book is biased. Same with the knowledge Bob and I seem to have about wars which is on the opposite spectrum of the encyclopedia guys.

The Bible isn't ;-)

They spent 10 years writing this encyclopedia, finding the causes for almost 1800 wars..... i'll stop before i get infracted :eek1:

[Jokersvirus]

As it was told to me, the bible is like wiki, its been changed and modified so much we dont know whats true or not.


thats from damage :P

not word for word but still.

But anyway, the wars involving religion, dont care if it takes up 7% or .07% its still to much. It shows the intolerance in the world when people go to war over religion. I thought we would have looked back at history and saw that isnt what we should do.

[glenofimaal]

As it was told to me, the bible is like wiki, its been changed and modified so much we dont know whats true or not.


thats from damage :P

not word for word but still.

But anyway, the wars involving religion, dont care if it takes up 7% or .07% its still to much. It shows the intolerance in the world when people go to war over religion. I thought we would have looked back at history and saw that isnt what we should do.

There are thousands and thousands of manuscripts from the OT and the NT from thousands of years ago that confirm that almost everything is not changed(I read this in an article before.... ill post it when i find it ;)..)

Most of the "errors" are translation mistakes found in the King James version of the Bible..... Those translation mistakes often give people ideas that the Bible is ridden with errors and contradictions; however, if you know the ancient languages that the Bible originally came from, you will be..... surprised :D

[Dess]

I have a relatively simple question.

Why are we discussing religion so heavily on a GAMING forum? For the purpose of not offending others or causing more drama, let's just say we drop the religious discussion.

This thread is about the mosque that has been proposed in NY. Everyone has different views on it, and that is understandable. However, this is not the time, nor the place to get into religious debate.

Just understand that no one is going to share the same views, accept that you can't force them to, and move on.

This thread has gone off topic far enough.

[glenofimaal]

I have a relatively simple question.

Why are we discussing religion so heavily on a GAMING forum? For the purpose of not offending others or causing more drama, let's just say we drop the religious discussion.

This thread is about the mosque that has been proposed in NY. Everyone has different views on it, and that is understandable. However, this is not the time, nor the place to get into religious debate.

Just understand that no one is going to share the same views, accept that you can't force them to, and move on.

This thread has gone off topic far enough.

I'm just answering people's questions ;-)

[Muffincat]

There is no reason we shouldn't be allowed to talk about religion on a gaming forum O_o

As far as I can tell, no one has been rude or offensive to each other. There's nothing wrong with discussing these things, imo. *shrug*

[Dess]

Then by all means go ahead. If people can remain civil there isn't a problem... but how often do religious debates remain civil?

[glenofimaal]

Then by all means go ahead. If people can remain civil there isn't a problem... but how often do religious debates remain civil?

Do you mean online debates in a casual forum,then no. In actual debates, you would be surprised because some do stay civil..... atleast for a little bit :-P

[Dess]

At least for a little bit... is exactly my point.

However, my peace being said I'm going just watch in the background again. Religion tends to bring out the worst in people... myself included.. so I'll elect to keep my mouth shut now.

[glenofimaal]

At least for a little bit... is exactly my point.

However, my peace being said I'm going just watch in the background again. Religion tends to bring out the worst in people... myself included.. so I'll elect to keep my mouth shut now.

Me too. It agravates me when..... people don't see what i'm trying to point out :twitcy:

[glenofimaal]

Is Our Copy of the Bible a Reliable Copy of the Original? (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorg.html)

Here's the link..... the discussion part of the website is very cool as well

Not to mention that the main part of the website has many interesting articles to read ;)

[Jokersvirus]

Ehh, whatever the story behind the bible is, its meant to give you strong and courage to live day to day, not go on murderous rampages because someone doesnt believe what you do.