China used prisoners in lucrative internet gaming work

[Jayhmmz]

China used prisoners in lucrative internet gaming work | World news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/25/china-prisoners-internet-gaming-scam)

LMAO - Just, LMAO.

[paecmaker]

Forced to play wow as gold farmers:huh:
As if physic labour isnt enough.

[Fr0stByte]

loll....just when you thought communism couldnt get any funnier.....it does **** like this

[LiNuX]

Wow.

If it's more profitable, maybe prisons in the US should do the same.

[paecmaker]

Wow.

If it's more profitable, maybe prisons in the US should do the same.

They are already talking that games make you violent. What do you think some people will say if you let already violent people to play it.

And btw, is goldfarming even allowed in US.

[Jayhmmz]

Wow.

You made a funny and didn't even realise it.

;)

** For people not familiar with WoW, it is the shorthand name for World of Warcraft.

[Exentenzed]

In other news, the crime rate in china seems to be at an all high,
with the main offender group beeing teenage children.

xD

[Jayhmmz]

In other news, the crime rate in china seems to be at an all high,
with the main offender group beeing teenage children.

xD

Ha! They're dying to play WoW!

[R3d M4g3]

>_<

What the hell is the world coming to?!

[Jayhmmz]

>_<

What the hell is the world coming to?!

Goodness knows. Even though this story is funny, it isn't funny when you know that prisoners are playing games on the inside, and watching sky television, working out in a gym, playing sports, etc... it's disgusting. They're in prison to get punished, so let them be punished by having little or no entertainment left in their lives, or for as long as they're serving their sentence.

The fact of the matter is, half of the prisoners will have it better on the inside compared to what they had in their old lives.

[paecmaker]

Goodness knows. Even though this story is funny, it isn't funny when you know that prisoners are playing games on the inside, and watching sky television, working out in a gym, playing sports, etc... it's disgusting. They're in prison to get punished, so let them be punished by having little or no entertainment left in their lives, or for as long as they're serving their sentence.

The fact of the matter is, half of the prisoners will have it better on the inside compared to what they had in their old lives.

They should be, yes. The prisoners here have it much better than many old people in nursing homes.

I say switch the old people with the prisoners.

The old people will have

all around care.
free meals, free coffee
money
lirbraries, education and entertainment
good health care
can decorate their rooms themselves
good and tasty food.

The prisoners will have

little money
have to pay for their meal and stay
coffee(if they pay)
little to none entertainment, small games on saturdays
cant decorate their rooms
bed at 20:00
about the worst food there is.

[R3d M4g3]

Goodness knows. Even though this story is funny, it isn't funny when you know that prisoners are playing games on the inside, and watching sky television, working out in a gym, playing sports, etc... it's disgusting. They're in prison to get punished, so let them be punished by having little or no entertainment left in their lives, or for as long as they're serving their sentence.

The fact of the matter is, half of the prisoners will have it better on the inside compared to what they had in their old lives.

Sucessful rehabilitation < LvL 85 Warlock and moar jailtime

[DataB4se]

Ohhhhh, I heard about this on the news, they were gold farming LOL. Well at least it's better than manufacturing stuff or doing actual HARD work. :D

[ZXDarknessfalls]

I would rather do real work than mine gold... would kill me to do the same thing over in a game all day D :

[BobTD]

I like how most people didnt even read that news article. The prisoners where doing 12 hours of hard labor a day and then forced to farm a certain amount of gold every night or suffer beatings. We aren't talking about how comfortable you imagine the US prison system to be without doing any real research or having any first hand accounts.

It might seem funny at first but we are talking about what probably amounts to human rights violations funded by our cultures gaming habits.

Am I the only one who looks at this and realizes the moral implications?

[Jayhmmz]

I like how most people didnt even read that news article. The prisoners where doing 12 hours of hard labor a day and then forced to farm a certain amount of gold every night or suffer beatings. We aren't talking about how comfortable you imagine the US prison system to be without doing any real research or having any first hand accounts.

It might seem funny at first but we are talking about what probably amounts to human rights violations funded by our cultures gaming habits.

Am I the only one who looks at this and realizes the moral implications?

In my opinion, if you commit a crime bad enough for a prison sentence, then you lose your human rights.

[BobTD]

In my opinion, if you commit a crime bad enough for a prison sentence, then you lose your human rights.

I believe your statement to be incredibly childish. Nothing against your personally, I just cant find a better way to phrase my reaction to that comment. Considering you posted the link to this article yourself, its pretty sad you obviously did not read it:


The 54-year-old, a former prison guard who was jailed for three years in 2004 for "illegally petitioning" the central government about corruption in his hometown

There are probably people here on this forum with family or friends who have been to prison. Maybe you should learn about the legal system and just how many people are in prisons do to minor drug offenses. Or how America has more people in the prison system than any other country. So there are a LOT of people who know someone who is in or has been to prison. Or how most prisoners are not serving life sentences and we should not be treating them sub human or denying their basic human rights, because that does not help anyone in the long run.

Or how in other countries you don't have basic freedoms like freedom of speech. And how you can be jailed for having different opinions than your governments. Or in this case a simple petition.

Or maybe you need stop rationalizing the wold to fit your comfort zone.

[Jayhmmz]

At the end of the day, it was his fault for illegally petitioning. I did generalise a bit too much when I said everyone who gets given a prison sentence should lose their human rights, but I was wrong. What I should have said was that everyone who causes harm to another, or worse, should be stripped of their human rights. Just like anyone who breaks into your house should be able to be dealt with, with force, without the law biting the defender of their home on the arse.

I also wouldn't have called my comment childish, I would have called it toothless.

[paecmaker]

To strip of a prisoners human right is mostly wrong, what makes us better than they if we give up to our bloodlust and become like them.

[Jayhmmz]

To strip of a prisoners human right is mostly wrong, what makes us better than they if we give up to our bloodlust and become like them.

I'm saying that because they didn't have any respect for other people's human rights in the first place, then they shouldn't be allowed any themselves.

[Jokersvirus]

I like how most people didnt even read that news article. The prisoners where doing 12 hours of hard labor a day and then forced to farm a certain amount of gold every night or suffer beatings. We aren't talking about how comfortable you imagine the US prison system to be without doing any real research or having any first hand accounts.

It might seem funny at first but we are talking about what probably amounts to human rights violations funded by our cultures gaming habits.

Am I the only one who looks at this and realizes the moral implications?

Morality is dead in Prison there is no such thing there. Might be human rights violations but thats there country we have no business getting involved in their affairs, were already knee deep in everyone else's problems. They are strict on their offender's laws and policy varies so they are able to do more in terms of punishment than we can here in the US so it seems awful and wrong but we have no right to judge them.

They might be humans they might be getting beat every night for not farming alot of gold, but there is one thing... They could have avoided all of it if they didnt break their laws and get sent to prison.

[BobTD]

Morality is dead in Prison there is no such thing there. Might be human rights violations but thats there country we have no business getting involved in their affairs, were already knee deep in everyone else's problems. They are strict on their offender's laws and policy varies so they are able to do more in terms of punishment than we can here in the US so it seems awful and wrong but we have no right to judge them.

They might be humans they might be getting beat every night for not farming alot of gold, but there is one thing... They could have avoided all of it if they didnt break their laws and get sent to prison.

You sum up the general american perspective on morality with his quote. You can call it your opinion, I still call it weak and cowardly ethics.

If we cared to stop the buying and selling of in game currency from botters and gold farmers we would both improve many games and remove the profit that has become so important prisoners are being beaten over it.

Why add to that because someone is to lazy to play a game the way it was designed?

This topic concerns the blind eye we turn to human rights. Im not saying any governement is perfect, I just think china is one of the worst humans rights violators. And Im not talkinga bout freedom of speech either Im talking about article five:


Article 5.

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

And here is a brief overview of some of the prison conditions:

AN OVERVIEW OF CHINESE PRISON CONDITIONS

What are prison conditions like generally?
Prison conditions vary hugely. It is most likely that a foreign national would be held in one of the better prisons. Foreign national prisoners are generally held separately from Chinese prisoners. However, there is often no hot water in the men’s facilities and the available cold water is often insufficient to launder clothes.
Cells are said to be freezing in winter and stiflingly hot in summer as there is no separate heating or air conditioning. In some prisons, prisoners are held 2 to a cell and each cell has its own balcony. In others, cell-mates sleep communally on a raised platform or on the floor.
Some cells do not have enough room for all the prisoners to lie down at once, and many are so crowded that there is less than one square meter per prisoner. There is no furniture in the cells and the lights are on twenty-four hours a day.
Lice, mosquitoes are a problem in Chinese prisons and many prisoners suffer from scabies.
In some institutions, prisoners must sit silently most of the day.

What food and drink is provided and what else can be obtained?
Prison guards run stores in the prisons selling essential items, cigarettes, foods such as dry noodles, fired fish/meat and candy. The prices are usually expensive.
Prisoners are provided with 3 meals a day.

What about health and hygiene in the prisons?
Health Care: Prisoners can obtain medical treatment in prison or in community hospitals. Medical care is free and prisoners receive a health check once a year. A clinic is provided in the prison and experts are brought in if required.

Hygiene: Prisoners are required to provide their own bedding, towels, toothpaste, soap, sanitary towels, and other daily necessities. Although it is possible after sentencing to secure prison uniforms, generally prisoners supply their own clothing to which prison stripes are affixed. After sentencing, all male prisoners routinely have their heads shaven.

What are the opportunities for work?
Under Chinese law, all prisoners who are able to work must do so, but prisoners who are unable to work because they are old, ill or otherwise unfit to work do not participate in work. It is unlikely that this 'opportunity' to work is given to foreign nationals. In 1990, about 10% of the prison population did not participate in work activities. Some of the prisons offer opportunities to work in the laundry, the print shop and work making clothing, road signs and shoe; the wages are meagre.

How does a prisoner receive and have access to money?
The safest way to send money to an inmate is through the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (UK citizens) or the US Consulate, Australian Embassy, Canadian Embassy (or relevant contacts). Please contact directly for further information.
(For UK citizens only) The money must be sent as a postal order, bankers draft or in cash to the desk officer for China at the Consular Division at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in London. The consul in China will be notified of the money deposit and will arrange for the inmate to receive the money in local currency. It is difficult to judge how long this process will take. It is usually no longer than three weeks but in some cases may only be taken in quarterly by the Consular staff on a visit and held in the prisoner's account at the prison to be used as required.

How can visits be arranged?
Pre-trial detainees are not allowed to receive visitors; packages can be sent but their contents will be scrutinised. Once sentenced, prisoners can receive monthly family visits lasting from twenty minutes to an one hour, depending on the facility. The Law on Criminal Reform stipulates two visits a month lasting 30 minutes. Visits should be arranged initially through the nearest Consular representation, who will contact the relevant authorities. Generally prisoners can get two 20 minute visits per month but sometimes the authorities, if requested by the Consulate, will grant additional visits.

What are the regulations concerning letters, parcels etc?
Local newspapers are available in detention centres. Once sentenced, a prisoner may subscribe to approved papers and receive approved books and magazines. Telephones are never available to prisoners. Prisoners are entitled to receive letters and parcels from friends/relatives but individual
prisons have differing regulations about receipts of parcels. In most places, food cannot be sent in.

Letters and papers from organisations (such as Amnesty International, Prisoners Abroad, universities etc.) are not
allowed.

What are the opportunities for education/training in the prisons?
Prisons have sufficient educational facilities for only a fraction of the prison population. Since 1981, the Chinese government has included education of criminals in its national education program.
Where conditions permit, special educational institutions are set up for formal and institutionalised legal, moral, cultural, and technical education of prisoners. By the end of 1991, 72.82% of all prison and reform-through-labor branches had established such special schools. Each school has a dean, teachers' office, and a teaching program and curriculum prepared each term, each year.
Prisoners study about 2 hours a day. Teaching staff are especially selected for the school; some are chosen from among the prisoners with a higher education level.

[Jokersvirus]

Its not a blind eye people see whats going on but since it is not affecting them why should time and effort be taken out to do something about it. There are Human rights organizations out there who should do something about it.

China might be the worse of the human right violators but its their country but they have a different method by which they try to reform their prisoners. different strokes for different folks. They are given three meals a day, in and they are forced to be punished for the acts they have committed. It sounds like a system that should be implied here in the US...

Edit: Missed the part abotu the beds, but again if they didnt want to be in those conditions they wouldnt have done what they did, so why should pitty be upon them when they put themselves in that situation in the first place?

If Article 5 you quoted is from the UNGA United Nations General Assembly and yet they have not acted they must not see a problem with it.

[BobTD]

You attitude makes me think you are just a victim of the bystander effect. Way to not hold yourself to a higher ethical code.

[Jokersvirus]

You are entitled to think what you wish as am I.

My Ethical code is fine and I am not a victim of the bystander effect. People are in prison to regret the actions they did to put themselves there if China wants to do it differenly than the rest of the world more power to them. I think they have the right idea to punish them the way they are if the US could do the same in its Prison systems I think crime would decrease.
Doing an internship at a state prison and seeing what other state prisons do I believe that there should be changes made, warm bed, 3 meals a day, toilet thats all they need.
And again people are in prison for comitting crimes against others punish them to make them regret their actions. Its like spanking a child they regret their actions that led up to the spanking and they will learn their lesson.
As I said if you believe this is an issue do something to get attention to it and bring it to the attention of those who have power to make change.

[Jayhmmz]

You are entitled to think what you wish as am I.

My Ethical code is fine and I am not a victim of the bystander effect. People are in prison to regret the actions they did to put themselves there if China wants to do it differenly than the rest of the world more power to them. I think they have the right idea to punish them the way they are if the US could do the same in its Prison systems I think crime would decrease.
Doing an internship at a state prison and seeing what other state prisons do I believe that there should be changes made, warm bed, 3 meals a day, toilet thats all they need.
And again people are in prison for comitting crimes against others punish them to make them regret their actions. Its like spanking a child they regret their actions that led up to the spanking and they will learn their lesson.
As I said if you believe this is an issue do something to get attention to it and bring it to the attention of those who have power to make change.

This pretty much mirrors my view about prison and it's prisoners, give or take a few points.

[paecmaker]

You are entitled to think what you wish as am I.

My Ethical code is fine and I am not a victim of the bystander effect. People are in prison to regret the actions they did to put themselves there if China wants to do it differenly than the rest of the world more power to them. I think they have the right idea to punish them the way they are if the US could do the same in its Prison systems I think crime would decrease.
Doing an internship at a state prison and seeing what other state prisons do I believe that there should be changes made, warm bed, 3 meals a day, toilet thats all they need.
And again people are in prison for comitting crimes against others punish them to make them regret their actions. Its like spanking a child they regret their actions that led up to the spanking and they will learn their lesson.
As I said if you believe this is an issue do something to get attention to it and bring it to the attention of those who have power to make change.


There will always be much crime no matter what punishment there is, what is worser in other countries which got more "lethal" prisons there are still crimes.

The true only way to diminish crime to a sufficient level is to go all 1984(google it) on the civilisation and that is something we shouldnt aim at.

during the medeival ages crimes where normal and the punishments often included torture and it didnt help to much didnt it.

I think criminals should be punished but they(atleast lesser violent prisoners) should be able to get atleast some education and entertainment, unless you want a hole bunch of lunatics in prison(more than it is now)

[Jokersvirus]

At the prison im at its like home away from home, they got a day room with Plasma Tvs, they got Radios, Rec time, they get free education up to a 4 year degree off tax payer dollars.
So what am I looking for when I google 1984? I dont understand that.

Crime will ALWAYS occur because of two reasons motive and opportunity. But that doesnt mean those who go to prison should be allowed to sleep all day watch tv and do nothing. Again, the reason prison is around is to punish those who have done wrong in society and from what ive seen there are some people who regret what they do and will change their ways but 99% of them wont. And if you take anything away from them they will riot which in returns causes more headache and national attention.

Violence is violence to classify them as "lesser violent prisoners" is an insult in general to the family of the victim and the victim them self. If they want entertainment and what not they should have truly prove themselves worthy. this is a list of what should happen if offenders want to watch tv or have anything to do with entertainment
1) No write ups what so ever for two years.
2) No association with any gangs or gang related activities
3) must be active in rehab courses and working towards a GED or two- four year degree
4) must have a job with zero write ups there.

Why should tax payers have to waste their money to see offenders sitting around watching TV all day? How is that helping with the process of punishing the offenders? It does nothing but allow them to enjoy themselves and do nothing.

[Jayhmmz]

The fact that the prisoners get these facilities disgusts me, because the fact of the matter is, certain prisoners are probably living better lives in prison compared to the lives that they had outside... FACT.

[paecmaker]

At the prison im at its like home away from home, they got a day room with Plasma Tvs, they got Radios, Rec time, they get free education up to a 4 year degree off tax payer dollars.
So what am I looking for when I google 1984? I dont understand that.

Crime will ALWAYS occur because of two reasons motive and opportunity. But that doesnt mean those who go to prison should be allowed to sleep all day watch tv and do nothing. Again, the reason prison is around is to punish those who have done wrong in society and from what ive seen there are some people who regret what they do and will change their ways but 99% of them wont. And if you take anything away from them they will riot which in returns causes more headache and national attention.

Violence is violence to classify them as "lesser violent prisoners" is an insult in general to the family of the victim and the victim them self. If they want entertainment and what not they should have truly prove themselves worthy. this is a list of what should happen if offenders want to watch tv or have anything to do with entertainment
1) No write ups what so ever for two years.
2) No association with any gangs or gang related activities
3) must be active in rehab courses and working towards a GED or two- four year degree
4) must have a job with zero write ups there.

Why should tax payers have to waste their money to see offenders sitting around watching TV all day? How is that helping with the process of punishing the offenders? It does nothing but allow them to enjoy themselves and do nothing.

Just need to clarify what I said, about 1984 there is a movie and a book with that name. I said it because its about a country there everything the people do is watched by the government, both in there houses theres cameras and as soon something illegal is done armed polices storm the house and abuse or maybe kill the people, or they brainwash them(the rules are strange so the people are not criminals but thats not the point).
What I meant was that ^this is one of the few things that would probably decrease crimes.

Giving prisoners education is good for many criminals are poor and the ones that want to change get atleast the chance to education. atleast I think so and as you said only prisoners that fullfill special "criterieas" may watch for example tv.

With lesser violent prisoners I meant the ones that behaved good in prison, sorry for being unclear im just tired and maybe this makes no sence to you,(good I really have to stop write "longer" posts when late).

[Jokersvirus]

What you say about 1984 is very illegal and if the government even tried to pass a bill like that Riots would occur all over the US. Giving offenders an education means nothing because most of them go back to the place where they lived fall back into the wrong crowd and start over. Most offenders go get an education because of the time cuts they offer which is beyond pathetic.

what Jay said is true as well.

There is two more things that annoy me
1) The credit classes. There are three levels, level 1 for every day you spend in prison you get credit for 2 days. Level 2 for every day you spend in jail you get credit for 1 day. Level 3 for every 2 days you spend in prison you get credit for 1 day.
2) Parole board. I was able to sit in on parole hearing where people who willingly and knowingly broke parole got a second chance on the street. It just blows my mind. I know that the system is overloaded thats why we need to make an Unreal Tournament style of prison :).

[BobTD]

Joker, you keep stating that we should be treating prisoners worse and worse, but how do you expect that to lower the crime rate? How can dehuminizing people and treating them worse, do anything but make them angry and violent?

Its like beating a dog. You make it mean. How is that going to decrease the repeat offenses? How does that help anyone?

So while you have all of these opinions, I think they would only make things worse.

As for the bystander effect. The fact that china is a human rights violator and you could care less is what Im talking about. if someone was being murdered, the ability to sit back and say its someone elses problem is not far removed from the ability to say "so what, its in another country".

Oh wait, I can already tell you're going to say it is pretty far removed. So let me explain that right away, I have never been a bystander to murder. But I have been offered the chance to buy gold for cash on dozens of games.

The article specifically said that they where not allowed to sleep until a quota was met. Sleep deprivation is a form of torture. Buying gold promotes this form of torture as long as its still used in a prison system. So its a problem that Im exposed to almost every day.

And when you argue "all the more power to them, its non of my business ", thats using weak logic to pretend we are far removed from the problem. The same logic that was used when neighbors didnt call the cops when they hear a woman being murdered in the Murder of Kitty Genovese. Hence the bystander effect.

[Jokersvirus]

Bob, you seem to care more about prisoners being comfortable than them being punished for their actions. Who cares if China is a human rights violator I dont see anyone trying to stop it I just see people complaining. They are on the right track in regards to how to treat prisoners.
If you read the other posts prisoners in the US get alot that they shouldnt so really its a home away from home and they can make hundreds of thousands of dollars during their prison term if they are smart.
So again prison is a placce where people go to reflect on their actions they committed against someone and how to better themselves or to see that prison is a very harsh and uncomfortable place... Not a summer vacation home.
You say my opinions would make things worse, well the current system does nothing really by give them time cuts and a summer beach home. If you are tough on them and make them realize this isnt where I want to be things will change or they grew up and prison is the only thing they know. Right now in my state the rate by which offenders commit a crime within 5 years is 38%. Make conditions worse that will drop because who wants to come back to a facility that is hell on earth?

If someone was being murdered someone can sit back and say its not their problem. There is a law that protects them they could sit back relax and watch someone die and no legal action can take place.

Ok if you are against how China treat their prisoners buy gold. It helps them meet their quota and can sleep. Complaining about morals and my ethical code isnt helping them at all.

My weak logic, as you call it, is im sure believed by many people. Who cares if China prisoners are farming gold. Again They put themselves in that position by Committing a crime against someone. So how is it the bystander effect when they clearly put themselves in that position? Saying its not my problem is the truth, i didnt put them in that position where they are being forced to do that they did, their own fault and I have not once ounce of pity for them.

Instead of feeling pity for them, why not think about those who have been harmed by the china prisoners and think about what they did that put them there. Think about all those who were raped, killed, assaulted, etc and then tell me those prisoners should be allowed more comforts because China isnt playing by the rules.

[BobTD]

Joker, I have not even read your post because after the first sentence you made it clear you have no leg to stand on.

I have not stated my opinion on weather or not a feel our prisons are to comfortable, that's nothing but wild conjecture on your part. I will respond by telling you what I do care about in our prison system, rehabilitation. I wont offer any more opinion on that because I'm not an expert on our prison system.

What This topic was and should still be about is China's prison system being used as a for profit gold farm. Please stay on topic.

[Jokersvirus]

But it was on topic the conversation went in a new direction in regards to the situation.


The only leg youve had to stand on was its wrong for China to do what they are doing. Well, complaining does nothing and gets nowhere. If you do not like how China treats their prisoners buy gold and what not.

When you have to resort to insulting someone on their ethical code and call them a victim of the bystander effect, the conversation is lost because you are unable to be mature about it.

[HamadaLFC8]

/thread closed