I'm against gay marriages being legalized.

[BobTD]

Ha, I just know this will draw some attention. I purposefully have a provocative title, but read it before you jump to conclusions. I also recommend you start by reading my rules suggestion for this section: (and then debate me)

Etiquette of SD (http://www.gamers-forum.com/showthread.php?24284-Etiquette-of-S-amp-D)

Gay people getting a marriage license is extremely offensive to me. I am also not religious. And I have no problem with their sexual orientation. But I still don't agree with the idea of gay marriage being legalized.

-First, I dont think churches should have to hold weddings unless they want to. I like when they discriminate because I think it helps people leave the church. (Im not much for organized religion either) This is not really an issue, because they are not being forced to provide these services. One religions views, in a society that claims to uphold the right to individual religious freedom, does not concern the validity of marriage.

-Second, the goverment recognizes two married people and gives them a legally binding contract saying they are married. Martial status is controlled by the government. Separation of church and state in my mind says the government has no business in matters of religion. So there should be no confusion here, the government has no business telling people how to practice religion, or denying marital status based on a religious majorities perspective.

So if a church accepts a gay couple and performs a wedding. The state should have no say in weather or not they are allowed a marriage license. That seems to fall under the right of the people to freely practice whatever religious beliefs they so choose.

The fact that the issue is "should gays be allowed to marry" and not "why does the government get to decide this?" is highly offensive. I'm totally against the idea of getting governmental approval. In fact I am against them being able to grant rights specific to a religious practice that only applies to those they choose.

The net we have fallen into lies with legal benefits provided by this "married" class. It ranges from tax benefits to the ability to make crucial emergency decisions for your spouse when your significant other cant make them. If affects inheritance, divorce, the whole nine yards. And tradition has gotten in the way of cold hard realization:

Government control of the definition of marriage is a breach of your ability to practice your beliefs. You can have those rights only so long as you have religious beliefs that are accessible to the majority. We make laws based on majority sure, but should we deny a basic human right based on religious perspectives?

That sickens me.

I do not think the government should be in the business of handing out marriage licenses. All of those things that marital status affects can be handled by a declaration of status by a couple to the government, this is not something we should be asking permission for.


So in closing this argument is actually more about the very idea of what legalizing a type of marriage really stands for. A limitation of your right to beliefs that fall outside of the majority. Yes you should be able to practice one of the most basic human rights regardless of the majorities religious perspective. That's not a valid legal concern. And when I said I found it offensive,it was because the issue was being oversimplified.

[Jaykub]

Okay, I'm.. not really sure where to start.

Lets face reality for a moment.. I'm pretty sure we can both agree this country is horrendous. I believe the real reason that America is making a huge push, and why it should be making such a push for gay marriage is because our personal rights are terrible. Because it is the way it is, gay couples need to get married to have the same rights and benefits as a straight couple. Could it be better? of course. Will this country try to make it better? Nope.

You seem to be forgetting that people can be gay and religious.

[xLykos]

I love gay people and I am a big supporter of gay marriage. I think I got lost some where along reading your post though. It seemed like you started off saying that you don't like the idea of gay marriage then went onto say you don't like that the government can decide who gets married, idk I think I just got confused some where lol

[BobTD]

Okay, I'm.. not really sure where to start.

Lets face reality for a moment.. I'm pretty sure we can both agree this country is horrendous. I believe the real reason that America is making a huge push, and why it should be making such a push for gay marriage is because our personal rights are terrible. Because it is the way it is, gay couples need to get married to have the same rights and benefits as a straight couple. Could it be better? of course. Will this country try to make it better? Nope.

You seem to be forgetting that people can be gay and religious.

I agree with you completely. The problem here really is how bad our laws serve the needs of the people.

And your both right I'm secretly for gay marriage I just wanted to get people in here to state their own opinions. I understand that you can be both religious and gay and that is the basis of my argument in a sense. If religion were not involved and a major contributor to the conversation then I would not have as much of a leg to stand on.

But I am a bit of an idealist here, in a perfect world the conversation would not be about granting gays the right to marry, it would be accepting that religion has no right setting policy for law in the first place. And the ideal way to achieve that is to remove the governments involvement in the process of marriage.

- you can still argue against my logic even as another supporter of personal rights. You just have argue that marriage is not purely a religious concern. But its really hard to argue the idea that changing unnecessary laws is better than removing them.

[Trunks]

Bob it sounds like you're for both sides, which doesn't make any sense lol. Church and State is separate, it's one of the amendment i think the 6th right? Also, marriage is separate from religion, plenty of atheists get married and ceremonies don't have to take place in a church.

Btw I'm for gay marriage, doesn't bother me what people want to do. If it makes them happy then let them be happy, who am I to take the happiness away from someone else.

[paecmaker]

Just to make me understand(as I take it for granted you talk about usa.) How does wedding work there, can you only do it in some kind of church or can you get married in for example a town hall without a priest(aka no religious things)?

If thats the case I see no problem to make a law that gay people can get married in atleast non religious matters while the churces are free to choose wether or not they want it.

The thing is today marriage is as much about beurocrazy(yay for spelling) with laws and stuff than just a bond between two people.


Now I might have no idea what I actually talk about as I basically know nothing about weddings in the us.

[Mizel]

Just to make me understand(as I take it for granted you talk about usa.) How does wedding work there, can you only do it in some kind of church or can you get married in for example a town hall without a priest(aka no religious things)?

If thats the case I see no problem to make a law that gay people can get married in atleast non religious matters while the churces are free to choose wether or not they want it.

The thing is today marriage is as much about beurocrazy(yay for spelling) with laws and stuff than just a bond between two people.


Now I might have no idea what I actually talk about as I basically know nothing about weddings in the us.

In the US you can have a religious or non-religious wedding. As long as you get your marriage license and have someone that is certified to marry you, it doesn’t matter. We had a non-religious wedding. My father-in-law is certified, and he is the one that married my husband and I :)

Gay marriage is one of those topics where I will never be able to see the other side of the argument. The 2 main arguments that I typically hear for one to be against gay marriage (minus those bogus arguments such as, “Gay marriage will lead to beastiality!”):

1) It’s against my religion.

I don’t agree with it, but I actually understand why people use this reasoning. However, how does one justify controlling other people’s lives based on their OWN beliefs? And also, what makes these people think that THEIR beliefs are the THE right ones and that everyone should have to follow those rules? That part never made a damn bit of sense to me. For example, say that someone Catholic is against gay marriage because their religion tells them to be. Now, they think that it should be made a law that every single person in the US should have to follow regardless of their religion. If you want to make it a rule that no one can join your church if they are gay, then fine. But to force your beliefs on an entire country (especially a country with such diversity in religions)? How, how does one justify this? I will never understand. Can anyone offer some insight into this?

2) I’m not against it, I just find it gross.

Ah, the typical response of someone that has just watched an hours worth of lesbian porn, but is against gay marriage. This one’s not hard. If you don’t like it, don’t do it. Denying someone basic human rights because you don’t like it is just absurd.

Laws for marriage/taxes are already in place for same sex couples. Allowing gays to marry will change nothing (with the exception of minor wording). Separation of church from state says that religion should have no bearing on laws. Again, I’m baffled by the fact that gay marriage is even still an issue.

[BobTD]

weddings are as much of religious tradition as anything else. Of course you can be non religious and have a wedding that makes perfect sense. But to say that we should have laws that enforce a certain religions customs in a religiously tolerant country is a joke.

If you take away the governments hand in hand relationship with this ancient tradition then we remove a form of religious discrimination. And with separation of church and state that is how it should be.

So rather than argue for gay rights I argue for freedom from religions influence in our laws.

[Imperial_Kade]

I'm also fully against it Church and State!

[Jaxgilbert10]

I don't support it but I think everyone should be happy...not gay

[Mizel]

I don't support it but I think everyone should be happy...not gay

But... gay IS happy...

gay; adjective \ˈgā\

1 a : happy and excited

[Imperial_Kade]

Lol he was trying to make a joke Mizel be happy gay no man man gay

[Jaxgilbert10]

Lol he was trying to make a joke Mizel be happy gay no man man gay

Lol kade first time u actually support me

[Imperial_Kade]

Lol kade first time u actually support me
Oh shut up :p

[Mizel]

Lol he was trying to make a joke Mizel be happy gay no man man gay

Haha I know, I was just trying to be a smart arse :P

[xLykos]

Is there any particular reason you don't like gays?

[Imperial_Kade]

I'm Christian but I'm not like there won't be it, I know people will be gay I have gay friends so I just say I don't like it, I can't fully stop it. I have friends like atheist and other religions but I don't tell them its wrong I just don't believe it. And this country was built on a Christian religion if you don't believe that then watch some stuff on it or just don't believe it but yeah Obama is really fu@&ing this place up. That's just me though.

Oh I didn't say I didn't like gay people

[Mizel]

I'm Christian but I'm not like there won't be it, I know people will be gay I have gay friends so I just say I don't like it, I can't fully stop it. I have friends like atheist and other religions but I don't tell them its wrong I just don't believe it. And this country was built on a Christian religion if you don't believe that then watch some stuff on it or just don't believe it but yeah Obama is really fu@&ing this place up. That's just me though.

Oh I didn't say I didn't like gay people

Are you from the US? And if you are, dafuq are they teaching you kids in history class these days?? Lol

If you are, this country was absolutely not founded on Christianity (or ANY specific religion). Our founding fathers left Europe because of religious persecution. Meaning that those running the country believed that there was one true religion and that everyone should be forced to believe it. Obviously, this upset people who did not agree with the “uniformity of religion must exist in any given society” mindset, and they decided to gtfo and start their own society with hookers and blackjack. Okay, not really. They wanted to start their own society where people were free to worship any god they chose, in any way they wanted. To top it off, many of the founding fathers were not even Christians themselves, but were in fact Deists. They believed in some sort of “god,” but it was not the “God” from the Bible.

So, our founding fathers absolutely did not found this nation based on any one religion (Christianity), but in fact founded it with the exact opposite idea: freedom of religion. Notice how when our founding fathers wrote the Constitution, they mentioned nothing of the nation being a Christian nation. But, they DID write:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

Which says that everyone is free to worship whatever religion they believe. Furthermore, they then went on to establish the separation of church from state, which says that in no way should religion interfere with government (which is why gay marriage should in fact be legal).

On top of all of those things, the 1796 Treaty with Tripoli was written under the presidency of George Washington (one of our Founding Fathers himself) and signed under the presidency of yet another Founding Father, John Adams, and states that:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/images/article11.JPG

“As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

So not only was this country not founded on any ONE religion, but our Founding Fathers explicitly state that this country is in no way founded on the Christian religion as well.

Yay for History lessons! :P

[Imperial_Kade]

Yes I agree they said come and worship whoever you want but they themselves were mostly episcopal and yes there was some deism and some atheism here and there but majority rule was episcopal
Episcopal Church (United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episcopal_Church_(United_States))
And yes I'm fully Native American from Alabama
And also thanksgiving (with pilgrims and Native Americans the first first founders) credited god for thier survival though the harsh winters

1516
1517
The info is all their Americas people was originally Christian
Also George Washington was Anglican they made this country for freedom why would they say it was a Christian country if they wanted people to come and worship freely but they where in fact followers of Christianity

What religion are you Mizel if your comfortable saying?

[Mizel]

You didn't link or post information that states or proves anywhere that "America was originally Christian" or any counterargument to any of the points that I made. Actually, what you did do was prove my point more- that America was founded on religious freedom and in fact NOT founded on any ONE religion.

Saying that Episcopalian was what the majority of people followed, and linking the wiki page on the Episcopal Church, does not prove that this country was founded on Christianity. It just says that a lot of people followed that certain religion. Like you even said, a lot of people also followed other religions. Which means that you proved my point and that, again, America was founded on the belief of the acceptance of *multiple* religions, not just one.

And what about the fact that our founding fathers themselves said -wrote, recorded- and then signed a document stating that "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion?" It's kind of hard to argue that this country was founded on Christianity when the people that founded it specifically stated that it wasn't. That's like the equivalent of your teacher giving you a printout of your next homework assignment and it's due date of Jan 29th. When you fail to hand in your homework on that specific date, you can argue with your teacher all you want that the due date says February 29th.... but when it comes down to it, the proof is right there in front of you, in writing.

[Jaxgilbert10]

Are you from the US? And if you are, dafuq are they teaching you kids in history class these days?? Lol

If you are, this country was absolutely not founded on Christianity (or ANY specific religion). Our founding fathers left Europe because of religious persecution. Meaning that those running the country believed that there was one true religion and that everyone should be forced to believe it. Obviously, this upset people who did not agree with the “uniformity of religion must exist in any given society” mindset, and they decided to gtfo and start their own society with hookers and blackjack. Okay, not really. They wanted to start their own society where people were free to worship any god they chose, in any way they wanted. To top it off, many of the founding fathers were not even Christians themselves, but were in fact Deists. They believed in some sort of “god,” but it was not the “God” from the Bible.

So, our founding fathers absolutely did not found this nation based on any one religion (Christianity), but in fact founded it with the exact opposite idea: freedom of religion. Notice how when our founding fathers wrote the Constitution, they mentioned nothing of the nation being a Christian nation. But, they DID write:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

Which says that everyone is free to worship whatever religion they believe. Furthermore, they then went on to establish the separation of church from state, which says that in no way should religion interfere with government (which is why gay marriage should in fact be legal).

On top of all of those things, the 1796 Treaty with Tripoli was written under the presidency of George Washington (one of our Founding Fathers himself) and signed under the presidency of yet another Founding Father, John Adams, and states that:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/images/article11.JPG

“As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

So not only was this country not founded on any ONE religion, but our Founding Fathers explicitly state that this country is in no way founded on the Christian religion as well.

Yay for History lessons! :P


I'm in history class lol

[Imperial_Kade]

Well you can show me all the info it won't change my beliefs.You do make a good point but I'm 14 and your almost 30 I would think you know more than me but I believe my religion.

What religion are you?

[Mizel]

Well you can show me all the info it won't change my beliefs.

What religion are you?

Well if you refuse to believe anything besides what you already believe, despite proof and/or information being presented... and also have no legitimate counterarguments or points... then a debate thread is probably something you'll want to avoid.

Whichever religion I may follow is not at all relevant.

[Imperial_Kade]

That's in just religion, religion is a very sensitive subject you want even tell your religion and your wondering why I won't change my beliefs?

[Mizel]

That's in just religion, religion is a very sensitive subject you want even tell your religion and your wondering why I won't change my beliefs?

Because my religion shouldn't have anything to do with you changing your beliefs in this discussion. The things that should change your beliefs in this discussion are the points made and factual information that is presented. My religion doesn't change the information and facts that I've provided, no one's does.

A debate is about presenting facts and information, not what religion you are. It's not like a debate goes...

Person A: I believe that global warming is happening because of reason X.
Person B: But if you look at reason Y, you'll see that blah blah blah
Person A: Well I'm Catholic.
Person B: OH! That changes everything! My beliefs have suddenly changed and now I believe in reason Y too!

[Jaxgilbert10]

I believe in sweet baby Jesus!

[Mizel]

I believe in sweet baby Jesus!

Beer is my religion too!

http://brewdrinkrun.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/19621_10151389265712752_1465037319_n.jpg

[Jaxgilbert10]

I just found my beer!!! Lol

[Imperial_Kade]

I just found my beer!!! Lol
Only 7 more years

[Jaxgilbert10]

I think I'll start early

---------- Post added at 03:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:00 PM ----------

Jk. S

[Imperial_Kade]

Because my religion shouldn't have anything to do with you changing your beliefs in this discussion. The things that should change your beliefs in this discussion are the points made and factual information that is presented. My religion doesn't change the information and facts that I've provided, no one's does.

A debate is about presenting facts and information, not what religion you are. It's not like a debate goes...

Person A: I believe that global warming is happening because of reason X.
Person B: But if you look at reason Y, you'll see that blah blah blah
Person A: Well I'm Catholic.
Person B: OH! That changes everything! My beliefs have suddenly changed and now I believe in reason Y too!

Your religion has just the same importance in this subject as mine if your religion believes in gayness there thats why you believe in it, but if there was no religion no-one would care about some gay guys

---------- Post added at 03:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:02 PM ----------

And also this is a gaming forum so how bout we focus on that and more than religion.

[Mizel]

Your religion has just the same importance in this subject as mine if your religion believes in gayness then there if there thats why you believe in it, but if there was no religion no-one would care about some gay guys

We weren't discussing gay rights at the time, we were discussing whether or not this country was founded on Christianity. When it comes to that discussion, no religion is relevant. Not mine, not yours.

When it comes to gay rights and you being against it because of your religion, then of course religion is valid. So, let’s get back to that discussion.

You are against gay marriage because of your religion. What you’re basically saying is that you want this countries laws to follow YOUR religious beliefs, regardless of the fact that there are dozens of different types of religions in this country. So, the logic would go like this….

I’m anti-gay because the Bible tells me to be! --> But wait, not everyone believes what I do. Guess we should change the laws and base them all on my religion. --> Laws change forcing everyone to adhere to the rules of ONE single religion

And that is the point where the Founding Fathers roll over in their graves because the reason they left to start anew in the first place… was because one single religion was being forced upon everyone. Oh, the freaking irony.



And also this is a gaming forum so how bout we focus on that and more than religion.

Dude. You are in a DEBATE thread. Meaning one whose sole purpose is to debate things and where religion may happen to be part of the discussion. If you don’t want to debate and discuss things… don’t post in this thread, and stick to the gaming ones ;)

http://i45.tinypic.com/svo2t5.jpg

[Jaxgilbert10]

Apperently if your gay you don't care what others think so why are we talking about this...

[Imperial_Kade]

Apperently if your gay you don't care what others think so why are we talking about this...

Because this is a debate section

[Imperial_Kade]

I'm going to end this stupid conversation I think its wrong there is NOTHING you can say to make me say its right God said a man and female and that's what I believe.
1518

[Mizel]

Actually, you're not going to end the conversation. You're simply going to stop replying. Those of us that know how to properly debate, present real facts and information, and aren't close minded will continue to converse once you've stopped posting.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/byebye.gif

[Imperial_Kade]

Lol I really pissed you off

[Mizel]

Lol I really pissed you off

I'm not pissed at all actually :)

[Imperial_Kade]

I'm not pissed at all actually :)

Ok well I guess ill stop being a dick, everyone has their religions ill probably be a little less Hmm aggressive in different subjects

[Mizel]

Ok well I guess ill stop being a dick, everyone has their religions ill probably be a little less Hmm aggressive in different subjects

You weren't really being a dick, you just weren't debating anything :P

Perhaps we should start a new debate?

Who would win in a fight: The Avengers or the Justice League?

[xLykos]

God I love you Mizel lol

And probably JL because of it's s***** writing, all the superheroes are OP AF, but Marvel >>>>> DC haha

[Jaxgilbert10]

WOW...you can be "a fun loving human being".

[Mizel]

God I love you Mizel lol

And probably JL because of it's s***** writing, all the superheroes are OP AF, but Marvel >>>>> DC haha

:D

I'd have to just Justice League over Avengers ONLY because JL has a Green Lantern... and man, GL's are powerful! Well, as long as they don't lose their rings :P


WOW...you can be "a fun loving human being".

Well now, that's just not nice :)

[ROFLBRYCE]

Hi all! What a read to come back to the forum to o.O

Remember that in the original post that this *is* a debate.


verb
1.
argue about (a subject), esp. in a formal manner.

This does not mean name call. This does not mean harass. This does not mean insult eachother. There was a topic proposed, a very serious one to some I see. I know many people take it personally (myself included, religious upbringing + many gay/bisexual friends throughout my life) and have many views on it. This does not give anyone the right to name call, or question their reasoning past what really matters.

I see no reason to take the thread down, and will leave it up unless someone else sees fit to remove it. Remember, play nice!

[Trunks]

Let's try to keep the language PG guys, no reason to go crazy over a debate. You want to debate the topic, not the person.