President may grapple with same-sex marriage

[Raw!]

The Supreme Court and the future of marriage
McCain, Obama oppose gay marriages, but how to ban them is the issue

WASHINGTON - With four months to go until the election, msnbc.com is presenting a weekly series, Briefing Book: Issues '08 which will assess issues and controversies that the next president must confront once he takes the oath of office.

This week, we look at the courts and marriage. Can same-sex couples marry? Is such a right is guaranteed by state constitutions and by the United States Constitution?

As these controversies make their way to the Supreme Court, will the next president have the opportunity to appoint justices who'll address these questions?

Why it’s a problem
For same-sex couples, the California Supreme Court’s May 15 ruling on marriage is an historic victory.

The state’s highest court ruled that the California’s constitution protects the right of same-sex couples to marry.

In doing so, the court overruled the state’s voters. In 2000, 61 percent of California voters approved a ballot measure that said “only marriage between a man and a woman is valid and recognized in California.”

But the ruling poses a thorny election-year problem for both Republican John McCain and Democrat Barack Obama.
Both men have said that they oppose granting legal recognition to same-sex marriages.

But neither candidate wants to alienate voters who support marriage rights for same-sex couples. And gay and lesbian campaign donors can be a powerful force, particularly in the Democratic Party.

McCain cannot afford to forfeit the support of conservatives in his party who abhor gay marriage and who believe the California ruling is an example of judges imposing social policy changes on the electorate.

Apart from California, same-sex marriage is recognized only in Massachusetts, where the state’s highest court ruled in 2004 that the state’s constitution implied protection for marriages between two people of the same sex.

Forty-five states have laws prohibiting same-sex marriages, including 26 states with constitutional amendments that define marriage in the traditional terms: one man and one woman.

The California Supreme Court ruling may pose a problem for the 45 states that do not recognize same-sex marriages — if the United States Supreme Court eventually overturns the 1996 federal law called the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA).

That law, signed by President Clinton, says that no state shall be required to recognize any same-sex marriage performed in another state.

But if marriage to another person of the same sex is a fundamental right protected by the United States Constitution, then DOMA would be unconstitutional and same-sex marriages would be constitutionally protected in every state.

In that case, California same-sex couples would be able to move to any of the 45 states that don’t recognize same-sex marriages and those states would be compelled to grant recognition to their marriages.

The U.S. Supreme Court’s Lawrence v. Texas ruling in 2003, which struck down state sodomy laws, seemed to indicate that the court might someday rule that there is a constitutional right of gays and lesbians to marry.

The question of marriage itself was not before the court in the 2003 case, but the majority opinion, written by Justice Anthony Kennedy, said, “Our laws and tradition afford constitutional protection to personal decisions relating to marriage, procreation, contraception, family relationships, child rearing, and education."

The Constitution, Kennedy added, demands respect “for the autonomy of the person in making these choices.” Then he added, “Persons in a homosexual relationship may seek autonomy for these purposes, just as heterosexual persons do.”

Does the “autonomy” of which Kennedy spoke include the right to marry?

The court has not yet said. And that’s another reason why the future membership of the court and the justices appointed by either President McCain or President Obama will be so very important.

Where the candidates stand
Both McCain and Obama have said they believe the states should decide their marriage policies. Both men have said they support civil unions, rather than full-fledged legal marriages between same-sex couples.

But McCain has been contradictory on civil unions, at times saying that he supports them, at other times saying he does not. "I do believe that people ought to be able to enter into contracts, exchange powers of attorney, other ways that people have relationships can enter into," he said in 2006.

On the day the California Supreme Court announced its ruling, Obama’s campaign issued a statement saying, “Barack Obama has always believed that same-sex couples should enjoy equal rights under the law, and he will continue to fight for civil unions as President. He respects the decision of the California Supreme Court, and continues to believe that states should make their own decisions when it comes to the issue of marriage.”

A proposed amendment to the state constitution will be on the ballot in California on Nov. 4 that will say, “Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.” If this is approved on Election Day, the state’s voters would overturn the state Supreme Court’s marriage decision.

McCain favors the proposed amendment to the California constitution.

“I support the efforts of the people of California to recognize marriage as a unique institution between a man and a woman, just as we did in my home state of Arizona," he said.


I actually sort of agree with both Obama and McCain on a couple of matters. I believe there shouldn't be same-sex marriage, because marriage is a bond between a man and a women.

I'm not saying I hate gays, but I think same-sex marriage is wrong. I just can't picture a man and a man together, but a women and a women I can sort of picture together. I don't know why, but I don't think it's right for a man and a man and a women and a women to be married.

My question to you guys is: Should same-sex marriage be granted in America, and/or in other countries?


Side note: Once again, I have nothing against gays, and don't hate them. (Just to put that out there)

[Iceskater101]

Raw I disagree with you
I think that if people are in love
they should get married
I agree with you it seems really weird
for a man and a man to get married or a
women and a women to get married
but if they are in love
I think it should be allowed

* I know you dont hate gay people
I am not saying you do *
just to let you know

[Raw!]

I understand your opinion and respect it.

But I am willing to argue my point that same-sex marriage shouldn't be allowed.

If god made a man and a women, then it does mean something. He didn't make a man and a man now did he.

(Note: this is based on the Jewish bible. ie: adam + eve)

[Trunks]

I also don't think same sexes should marry. I don't hate gay's either, its just that marriage is a ceremony. when gays get married, there breaking the ceremony.

[Iceskater101]

yeah its awkward to see gays/lesbians to get married
but how would you be in there position
if you were attracted to the same sex
wouldnt you want to marry the person you loved?

[Raw!]

I also don't think same sexes should marry. I don't hate gay's either, its just that marriage is a ceremony. when gays get married, there breaking the ceremony.

Exactly. Marriage is a sacred bond between a man and a women. Not man and man or women and women.

God made it that way, I think we should follow it, and keep it that way.

[younging94]

I strongly disagree with you and look past your opinion and spew hatred words at your heterosexual fairytale life time.

Ahem.

[LemonRising]

The whole topic is basically surrounded by god.
I say let there be gay marriage!
It doesnt affect YOU so why should you care?
if it makes them happy, why should you disagree?
Times are changing, they always do, and people need to suck it up and accept it.
You know what used to be weird?
seeing women vote.
EL OH EL


-shrugs-
I don't see why it's SUCH a big issue, other than politicians and religious bible thumpers blowing it up beyond proportion.
Why can't we just accept people the way they want to be, and let them be happy?
Oh wait, thats right, because humans are ignorant and hypocritical beings.
har!

[Kujo]

I think its perfectly fine. Why shouldn't gays and lesbians be afforded the chance to live a life of misery and hate just like us straight married couples.

[rukisuto]

I actually sort of agree with both Obama and McCain on a couple of matters. I believe there shouldn't be same-sex marriage, because marriage is a bond between a man and a women.

I'm not saying I hate gays, but I think same-sex marriage is wrong. I just can't picture a man and a man together, but a women and a women I can sort of picture together. I don't know why, but I don't think it's right for a man and a man and a women and a women to be married.

I think it's wrong that you are opposed to gay marriage because you can't picture them together.
So what?
Why mess up the life they choose to lead just because people don't want to see them together.
Can you imagine being in those shoes?

Then people try to pull the "they can't procreate" card.
It's horrible because there are so many gay couples out there that are willing to adopt from the over filled foster care places and they won't allow it BECAUSE they're gay.

I'm getting on a whole different issue, lol.
Sorry.

[Raw!]

Not only can I not picture them together. It's just completely wrong.

And no, it doesn't affect me, but it effects religion. Like I said before, wasn't god the one that made a man and a woman? Yetcha, you are talking about 2 completely different topics. Seeing women vote and same-sex marriage.

Next thing is, they can't you know.. Reproduce. And so what if they're willing to adopt? Not all of them are, and what if this world was going to be filled with gay couples, we wouldn't have children and life on Earth probably would seize to exist.

@Kujo: They aren't living a life of misery. They can go do whatever they want to do. Just atleast not get married because that basically breaks the bond between marriage that a man and a woman have to have. It's not forcing them to live a life of misery just cause it's strong for them to get married.

Again quick note, I don't hate gays, I just don't want to see them get married.

[rukisuto]

Next thing is, they can't you know.. Reproduce. And so what if they're willing to adopt? Not all of them are, and what if this world was going to be filled with gay couples, we wouldn't have children and life on Earth probably would seize to exist.

What kind of conclusion that?
Not everyone on the face of the earth is going to be gay.

It's not fair for gays to not be able to get married because they'll never receive any of the lawful benefits that come with it.
Like younging said somewhere; if your loved one gets hurt, you're not allowed to ride in the ambulance with them.
And if they end up in the hospital you're not in any position to make medical decisions for them.

How great is that?

Note: I don't hate your opinion. Just shooting down anything I can, lol :]

[Iceskater101]

What kind of conclusion that?
Not everyone on the face of the earth is going to be gay.

It's not fair for gays to not be able to get married because they'll never receive any of the lawful benefits that come with it.
Like younging said somewhere; if your loved one gets hurt, you're not allowed to ride in the ambulance with them.
And if they end up in the hospital you're not in any position to make medical decisions for them.

How great is that?

Note: I don't hate your opinion. Just shooting down anything I can, lol :]


well ruki is right
I mean not all people are going to be gay
and yes it affects our religion
but if gay people love each other they should get married
if a man and a women can get married I think a man and a man can
get married or a women and a women

[Raw!]

So you're basically telling me.

That a man and a man having sex with each-other is okay and it's right? And there is nothing wrong with it what so ever?

[Kujo]

Answer me this... if guy A puts his wiener into guy B buttox, has your life been affected?!

The answer is no. It hasn't. And the same holds true if they were to get married. Speaking from the point of view of someone who HAS been married, and IS friends with quite a few gay/lesbian couples, let me tell you that 2 people in love have EVERY right to get married and in doing so, NO ONES life is affected but there own. Regardless of whether or not they can procreate. Procreation is NOT the final step in marriage. I know A LOT of couples (man and a woman) who refuse to have children because they just dont want to. So tell me, should they be forced to not marry because they won't procreate either?

Bottom line, what 2 people do in there personal life, unless it directly affects other people, is there business and they should be free to do whatever the hell they damn well please. And for guys that say, "seeing 2 guys together is just sick and gross and just wrong", and then they go home and jerk it to some lesbian porn, are the worlds biggest ******ing hypocritical bigots.

EDIT: @ Raw! You said that if gay people get married it breaks the bond of marriage that men and woman share. Can you do me a favor and explain to me how? Again, how does John and Kenny saying "I Do" affect in anyway whatsoever the bond between me and my wife or my parents marriage or anyone else's? How does there marriage make mine anything less special or significant?

[Raw!]

It doesn't necessarily affect your marriage, but it breaks the bond because for such a long time it was a man and women that were getting married, and now a man and a man? It breaks the tradition basically.

Now answer me this, even though it may be off-topic.

You have beef with EA for trying to monopolize the gaming industry. How in the world is it going to effect you? Is it going go screw your life up? It's not. But you still have beef with EA. Just like me, I don't hate gays or anything, but my beef is that they are allowed to be married.

However, can I change the fact that they are gay? No I can't. They're born that way, and there will always be gays and lesbians around. I don't hate them, once again, I just don't like the idea of them getting married.

[younging94]

May i just add, Kujo, that was pure genius of awesome.

And why with all the reproducing stuff? Everyone in the planet is NOT going to be gay, thats just pretty retarded to think that (no offense mate). And for the fact they cant reproduce doesnt mean they shouldnt get married or be a couple. Infertile couples, and Old people shouldnt get married?

[Raw!]

Also to comment on what iceskater said.

You said that just because a couple loves each-other they should get married right?

Well say 12 year old John and 11 year old Kate love each-other. They should get married? Although at that age you shouldn't even be in love, but say they are. They should get married?


Also, it's nice to see all of you teaming up on me :D. Where is Trunks though.

[younging94]

.....well to response of what you said....they just.....cant get married....because there freaking underaged, that one just takes it down overall.
Yea, we could just forget the subject and beat you with flaming sticks, but this is more civilized.
And, what are your reasons they shouldnt get married?
Make a list =o. If you would like my good friend.

[Raw!]

I'd love to.

1. It's wrong.
2. Breaks the ceremony of marriage.
3. Can't reproduce.
4. If they adopt, they will raise gay children. We need more straight children to be able to reproduce.
5. Not supported by religion
6. Will encourage crazy behaviour.
7. The children need a daddy and a mommy role models.

Should I go on about the reasons why they shouldn't marry?

[Trunks]

What kind of conclusion that?
Not everyone on the face of the earth is going to be gay.

It's not fair for gays to not be able to get married because they'll never receive any of the lawful benefits that come with it.
Like younging said somewhere; if your loved one gets hurt, you're not allowed to ride in the ambulance with them.
And if they end up in the hospital you're not in any position to make medical decisions for them.

How great is that?

Note: I don't hate your opinion. Just shooting down anything I can, lol :]

It is also not fair to us. The ceremony has been around for a long. It started as a bond between a man and a woman. After years and years of this, gay's try to break the ceremony. You can't just change things like that. If you change the ceremony you are breaking the ceremony.



Answer me this... if guy A puts his wiener into guy B buttox, has your life been affected?!

The answer is no. It hasn't. And the same holds true if they were to get married. Speaking from the point of view of someone who HAS been married, and IS friends with quite a few gay/lesbian couples, let me tell you that 2 people in love have EVERY right to get married and in doing so, NO ONES life is affected but there own. Regardless of whether or not they can procreate. Procreation is NOT the final step in marriage. I know A LOT of couples (man and a woman) who refuse to have children because they just dont want to. So tell me, should they be forced to not marry because they won't procreate either?

Bottom line, what 2 people do in there personal life, unless it directly affects other people, is there business and they should be free to do whatever the hell they damn well please. And for guys that say, "seeing 2 guys together is just sick and gross and just wrong", and then they go home and jerk it to some lesbian porn, are the worlds biggest ******ing hypocritical bigots.

EDIT: @ Raw! You said that if gay people get married it breaks the bond of marriage that men and woman share. Can you do me a favor and explain to me how? Again, how does John and Kenny saying "I Do" affect in anyway whatsoever the bond between me and my wife or my parents marriage or anyone else's? How does there marriage make mine anything less special or significant?

You think that it doesn't effect people? Well if it doesn't then why do are many people get hyped up about it. That is because it does. Some people take huge offense to gay marriage.

Gay marriage may not offend you, there for you don't see it hurting effecting your marriage. To a lot of other people, it does effect them, because they are offended by it.

[younging94]

I'd love to.

1. It's wrong.
2. Breaks the ceremony of marriage.
3. Can't reproduce.
4. If they adopt, they will raise gay children. We need more straight children to be able to reproduce.
5. Not supported by religion
6. Will encourage crazy behaviour.
7. The children need a daddy and a mommy role models.

Should I go on about the reasons why they shouldn't marry?

Yes, please go on.
And in response to that.
Alot of couples cant and dont want to reproduce.
The ceremony? You have to realize, **** changes. Biblical or anything else. We have to adapt to stuff, when will people learn that?
O, and of COURSE they will raise gay children. Just like straight couples raise straight children?
And stop the bs with Religion. One religion cant take over the whole country. In the bible women didnt have about ANY of the rights they have now. Crap changes. Its outdated.
What crazy behavior???
And for the 7th and most important...not really. Thats like saying Single Parent relationships wont work.
Well... fyi, it does mate...

[Trunks]

Yes, please go on.
And in response to that.
Alot of couples cant and dont want to reproduce.
The ceremony? You have to realize, **** changes. Biblical or anything else. We have to adapt to stuff, when will people learn that?
O, and of COURSE they will raise gay children. Just like straight couples raise straight children?
And stop the bs with Religion. One religion cant take over the whole country. In the bible women didnt have about ANY of the rights they have now. Crap changes. Its outdated.
What crazy behavior???
And for the 7th and most important...not really. Thats like saying Single Parent relationships wont work.
Well... fyi, it does mate...

I take offense to that..... Just because you don't like a religion doesn't mean to you degrade it. The bible set the course of which, we must take. I think god left it to us to decide what is right or wrong and he gave us hints to what is right. *Hint* *Hint* Left Adam and Eve.

[younging94]

Sorry, didnt mean to sound that way.
Im christian, and i sometimes drift away from the meanings of the bible because its just discriminating.
Adam And Eve....didnt Eve betray god and they were outcasted.
So, that kinda seems to me, male and female relationships, really dont turn out that good sometimes. So, why dont you try something new.
And you cant always bring religion into it....because some people dont have the same religions.

[Trunks]

My question to you guys is: Should same-sex marriage be granted in America, and/or in other countries?


Side note: Once again, I have nothing against gays, and don't hate them. (Just to put that out there)

Well the question is what I thought of it and I told you.

[Iceskater101]

I'd love to.

1. It's wrong.
2. Breaks the ceremony of marriage.
3. Can't reproduce.
4. If they adopt, they will raise gay children. We need more straight children to be able to reproduce.
5. Not supported by religion
6. Will encourage crazy behaviour.
7. The children need a daddy and a mommy role models.

Should I go on about the reasons why they shouldn't marry?

ok um my friend has too moms
and my friend was raised just fine
crazy behavior?? HAHA I dont think so...
oh my lord. just because lesbians raise a child doesnt make the child lesbian
because my friend isnt lesbian who has too moms..

[Trunks]

ok um my friend has too moms
and my friend was raised just fine
crazy behavior?? HAHA I dont think so...
oh my lord. just because lesbians raise a child doesnt make the child lesbian
because my friend isnt lesbian who has too moms..

He said would encourage it not cause it....

[Raw!]

Yes, please go on.
And in response to that.
Alot of couples cant and dont want to reproduce.
The ceremony? You have to realize, **** changes. Biblical or anything else. We have to adapt to stuff, when will people learn that?
O, and of COURSE they will raise gay children. Just like straight couples raise straight children?
And stop the bs with Religion. One religion cant take over the whole country. In the bible women didnt have about ANY of the rights they have now. Crap changes. Its outdated.
What crazy behavior???
And for the 7th and most important...not really. Thats like saying Single Parent relationships wont work.
Well... fyi, it does mate...


Single parent relationship work, but not as quite as effective as when a dad is there. Who is going to take little Johnny fishing? Or teach him how to play football?

Crazy behaviour? As if a man and a man isn't already crazy, people may get ideas off f****** a dog or something, or even marrying that dog.

Religion bs? Isn't religion one of the things that actually make people happy?? So you're saying f*** religion? So, when others stray aside from one religion and they don't believe in it, people go flame them down. But when gays stray aside from their religion, people go "well their in love yo!" WTH is that? You're saying gays are special now?

[Iceskater101]

He said would encourage it not cause it....

oh ok sorry Raw My bad


Single parent relationship work, but not as quite as effective as when a dad is there. Who is going to take little Johnny fishing? Or teach him how to play football?

Crazy behaviour? As if a man and a man isn't already crazy, people may get ideas off f****** a dog or something, or even marrying that dog.

Religion bs? Isn't religion one of the things that actually make people happy?? So you're saying f*** religion? So, when others stray aside from one religion and they don't believe in it, people go flame them down. But when gays stray aside from their religion, people go "well their in love yo!" WTH is that? You're saying gays are special now?

yes raw your right men and a women parenting works better your right
but it still can work

[rukisuto]

I'd love to.

1. It's wrong.
2. Breaks the ceremony of marriage.
3. Can't reproduce.
4. If they adopt, they will raise gay children. We need more straight children to be able to reproduce.
5. Not supported by religion
6. Will encourage crazy behaviour.
7. The children need a daddy and a mommy role models.

Should I go on about the reasons why they shouldn't marry?

A lot of your statements aren't even supported by facts.
Is it a fact that gay couples will raise gay children?
Is it a fact that it will encourage crazy behanvior?
Is it a fact that it's essential that a child have a dad AND a mom?

I actually find those offensive and rude to people who are gay.
And it's really sad that more than half of america thinks that way.

P.S. I love Kujo and his awesome speaking abilities :]

[Raw!]

Well then ruki, what kind of children will they raise? Straight one's? Why would they be raising straight children if they themselves are gay?

For example, little Timmy's parents are Christian's, and raise Timmy to believe in the Christian religion, but Timmy sees otherwise and thinks that being Jewish is the right way. Of course Timmy's parents would talk him out of it, telling him that he should believe in the religion he was raised in. Same with gay. If Timmy wants to be straight, his gay parents will try talking him out of it.

Also, when and where did I say it that crazy behaviour will happen for sure? Where did I say that? I said it will encourage it. As if having sex with another man isn't crazy enough, that will just promote people to do stupid stuff. Trust me, TV can be a big influence on people's lives. Thats a fact.

No, it's not a fact that a child should have both a mom and a dad. But the child could be better off with having both parents. Like I said, who is going to take little Timmy and teach him to play football? Hockey?

Yes, Kujo does have one heck of a speaking ability. Even I have a tough time debating against him.

[LemonRising]

May I just say this:
Gays will solve the world's problem of OVER POPULATION



TAKE THAT. AHAHAHA
It works.
Don't tell me it doesn't.
Over population is a serious thing.
I just found the answer.
BOW DOWN PLZ.

Traditions get old, and they get broken.
What else is tradition?
Cutting the labia of young girl's vaginas (excuse me from language).
So because it's tradition, it shouldn't be changed?
No, you say it should because it's morally wrong and causes direct pain D:
Well I say, excluding people from marriage is morally wrong and can put a great strain on them and people telling them they are going to hell and they should be killed and beaten is also quite mentally wrong.

Also, Raw when I mentioned Women voting I was relating the subjects and the views people had on them, and how wacky and weird it was to see women voting, and how it OFFENDED them.

You guys need to stop getting all butthurt just because some people fell in love and want to spend their lives together like normal people.

Why do you oppose it?
Because it offends you.
You know what offends me?
You. hahaha (lolno I'm absolutely joking. But being offended is not a good reason because you're reasons for being offended are not valid.)

Man I have to stay out of these discussions.
Gets too stupid and I just can't deal with the mass stupidity and people getting personal and "I KNOW THE RIGHTEOUS PATH". Being right sucks. Everyone's wrong sometimes, you know?

LET THE GAYS ENJOY THE WONDERFUL HELL THAT IS MARRIAGE.
BECAUSE WHETHER THEY'RE MARRIED OR NOT, THEY'RE STILL TOUCHING EACH OTHER.

One by one:

1. that's not a reason.
2. actually I believe they are Performing the ceremony of marriage.
3. they can adopt the tons of foster kids, or even some azn kids! They'll be the next Angelina Jolie! 8D
4. there is no evidence to support this. there will always be straight people. Actually I heard once that one day females might become a-sexual and we wont need men at all. ( :
5. not everyone believes in religion. so saying that this is a true reason is forcing religion on people. and then you become a bible thumper and no one likes bible thumpers.
6. nice low shot at calling gays crazy. now you're just pulling **** out of no where, offending tons of people (not just gays), and being absolutely ignorant.
7. So single parents are what? failures? ("no they share custoday of the child!" there are some fathers (and mothers) who hit and run and leave the mother or father to raise the kid on their own)

So please. Enlighten me, what reason is there beside wacky tradition and religion (this is also apart of the tradition topic ): )

[Raw!]

You've said that 20 damn times. Traditions gets broken lalalalala. Can you come up with some new s***?

(20 is exaggeration, I know people will go *AHAHAAHAH YOU ARE WRONG. NOT 20! BUT 10!*)

Over-population my a**. What happened to Doomsday and Global Warming? Won't that take care of over population? Don't you believe in global warming?

1. - It's wrong is not a reason? wth you talking about man?
2. I actually believe they are breaking the ceremony of marriage. And what the hell is up with marriage anyway? Why do they need to get married? Do they think you get some kind of badge that says "im married" or something? No. They don't. It's just a tradition that had a man and a women together.
3. They can adopt those kids and raise them to be gay.
4. I think you got 3 and 4 mixed up, so I can't really counter #4 cuz it doesnt make sense.
5. not everyone believes in it, sure, only about you could say 3 quarters of the world dont believe in it. so ur telling me that most gays dont believe in religion right?
6. where the hell did I say gays I are crazy? I said what they do is crazy, like a man having sex with another man is crazy, but not the people. no, they could actually be intelligent people I can talk to, but their actions are crazy.
7. you seem to have a habit of telling things like they actually arent. really my friend, I'm amazed. I said that a mom can't make-up for a daddy. I was raised by a single mom okay, I've been through that, and I know my mom can't make up for a daddy, but she was very succesful in raising me. she isn't a failure.

[LemonRising]

You've said that 20 damn times. Traditions gets broken lalalalala. Can you come up with some new s***?

(20 is exaggeration, I know people will go *AHAHAAHAH YOU ARE WRONG. NOT 20! BUT 10!*)

Over-population my a**. What happened to Doomsday and Global Warming? Won't that take care of over population? Don't you believe in global warming?

1. - It's wrong is not a reason? wth you talking about man?
2. I actually believe they are breaking the ceremony of marriage. And what the hell is up with marriage anyway? Why do they need to get married? Do they think you get some kind of badge that says "im married" or something? No. They don't. It's just a tradition that had a man and a women together.
3. They can adopt those kids and raise them to be gay.
4. I think you got 3 and 4 mixed up, so I can't really counter #4 cuz it doesnt make sense.
5. not everyone believes in it, sure, only about you could say 3 quarters of the world dont believe in it. so ur telling me that most gays dont believe in religion right?
6. where the hell did I say gays I are crazy? I said what they do is crazy, like a man having sex with another man is crazy, but not the people. no, they could actually be intelligent people I can talk to, but their actions are crazy.
7. you seem to have a habit of telling things like they actually arent. really my friend, I'm amazed. I said that a mom can't make-up for a daddy. I was raised by a single mom okay, I've been through that, and I know my mom can't make up for a daddy, but she was very succesful in raising me. she isn't a failure.

I don't even believe I said it ten times D: maybe 9. 9.5? Who's keeping count? Anyone? D:
You're coming up with the same **** too XD So don't go that road >:

Doomsday I think is a joke 8D
Global warming, yes I believe in it. Ever hear of the ice age? Same thing, different whether. Actually no, I believe after the warming period, the ice age comes.
And humans are stupid enough (although they are stupid) to gay themselves out of existence XD Even if there were ONLY gays (chances, slim) they would still reproduce because it would be their duty. There is a straight group, however, who have chosen to not have any babies at all because "humans are horrible creatures". Their aim is actually to get rid of the human race. I would link or something but I read it a long time ago and don't remember a hint of an organization name or anything ):


I would like to foremention that I have a habit of not thoroughly explaining things because I get unfocused and trot along to the next one, so i apologize for that, let me explain more in depth.
I would also like to mention that I'm not mad, not gonna hate you forevurz, or even bring it up outside this topic? 8D


1. For a list of reasons, it's pretty bad for it not to be a reason D: "It's wrong" is a state of opinion, it's what you're giving reasons for. It should be more of a title than a #1.

2. They're still preforming the ceremony of marriage, but just no man or no woman. Do straight people need to get married? No. It's tradition. Personally I don't ever want to get married, because I see it as a silly tradition, but I will never say "there should be no marriage." I can see WHY people want to be married, and I let them, I will support them, and I will even cry when my relatives/friends walk down the aisle D':

3. Gay people are quite open minded. They believe you are born with your sexuality, and so why should they force their children to be gay, when they know what it's like? They will be supportive of whatever sexuality their children turn out to be. I've heard tons of gay couples say this. (and straight ;D)

4. No I think I got them right, but now the two have merged. They are similar and would merge eventually if the discussion continued, which it did. Also the ending about women becoming asexual (able to reproduce without a partner) was just some cool theory I added in and I was half adding it to the conversation. You can tell by the smiley face, "cause *****es love smiley faces." If I sound angry it's just because it's an intense discussion, but most of the time I'm smiling typing away and half joking and being sarcastic. I will always get more disappointed than angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry >:U (though you could possibly not like me now (: )

5. I'm not telling you any gays don't have a religion. I'm saying by including religion you are forcing the matter. People have different religions, people have no religion, whatever it is, you pressing YOUR religion on them isn't cool. It's ignorance at it's best.

6. Well that brings up, if people do crazy things, are they still sane? All I'm saying, it's a low blow and the mental state of people when they are doing these things has nothing to do with it. I don't think if I made crazyapelove to a woman I'd be seeing things and talking to people you can't see. So if you mean 'crazy' as in 'gay' then I would refer you to 3, as they are related. And then calling being gay crazy is pretty bad too >: I don't know where you are at with the whole crazy thing. so I can only give an assumed response.


7. Amazed? well -blush- I try -fans self- hee hee~
Now where do I begin here? Seeing as none of us have been brought up by any gay couples, we can't say if there's a need for a male parent, (or vice versa. We'll stay with two females and missing dad to keep this easier) if they ever wanted one or seek one. All I'm saying, it happens all the time, and who knows if it's really bad? I don't think the child will ever have the time where they go "MY DAD RAN OUT ON ME DDD:) because he has two parent figures in his life. (apparently we're assuming the child is male too) We can't say anything on the topic. I see it as, if they love their child and raise them well, go for it (: There are a lot of straight couples who are horrible to their children, right? They have it a lot worse than having no dad. I really think the kid will be fine, and if they're only problem is that they don't have a father figure in their life, they're luckylol.
And some of my answers were quite assumptive, but you didn't give us more to go by than a few words, so don't blame me for that. I answered fully knowing you'd reply and mark me where I'm wrong, and here I am replying again and you'll reply and we'll dance away until midnight. Aka. I can only address what you give me.


my back hurts from long replieslol
-stretch- Good discussion by the way. Nothing to immature being said. Aside from me and my stupid humour 8D but I mean it in good will.


[EDIT: Oh god I write PAGES. Lmao sorry. I hope no one's mad at my longreplies. They are long.]

[Raw!]

To be honest with you, I thinky your post about ends this discussion. I guess I will have the closing sentence and I promise it will not be biased.

1. It's wrong is a opinion, but so are the other reasons. We could say that all my reasons are opinion, you can call them fact, or you can call them un-real. Whatever you call it, is the way they are to you.

2. Sure they are quite literally performing the art of marriage. But marriage was something that started between a man and a women. You didn't see a man and a man walking down the aisle now did you? Back then, I don't think gays existed. Otherwise, we wouldn't be here having this great discussion right now.

(we are repeating a lot of points we said before just to tell you)

3. Whatever type of parent you are, I believe that you want your kids following the same path you take. However not career wise, I mean religion, sexuality, the food you eat, etc. See, my mom wants me to eat more vegetarian and not eat stuff like pepperoni. I don't, because I am told to by my mom and I respect that. So my point here is, respect your elders. And by that, listen to what they give you. So if a gay parent tells little Timmy to be gay. (crazy as it may sound) then little Timmy will respect that decision. Besides, little Timmy was raised in a gay environment, wouldn't he choose his path as something close to that environment? ie: settle with another gay man

4. no, because of a debate I will not take things outside this topic and have a grudge on you. there is a word called respect, and i have respect for everyone that doesnt break the rules, offend others, etc.

5. im not trying to press my religion on them. i'm just saying their religion doesnt allow homosexuality, and thats why religion doesnt support it. however, if gays choose to be gay, they are straying aside from their religion.

6. i'm not calling gay bad. i'm calling the marriage wrong. I have no problem with them, as long as they dont try hitting on me or anything. also, like i said before, tell me, is having sex with another man okay? if it's not, what do you call that then? crazy? it can promote crazy behaviour such as humping a dog or something. didn't we see an article about a man having sex with an 80 year old corpse?

7. my point here is, a woman and a woman cant offer the same kind of things a dad can. or vice versa. and of course people have it worse then us. somewhere around the world a child is probably working in a factory to support her family, while we have this discussion and are enjoying ourselfs with the company of our own home. that child doesnt have that.


side notes: yeah, your reply is definately wrong, and my back also hurts from replying this long, but heck, it's one heck of a debate is it not?



Conclusion: Or is it?

Anyway, I've come to this conclusion. If we keep dancing back and forth like this, we'll end up repeating the same things over and over again. I think this should end here.

So should gay marriage be allowed? I will keep my opinion of no. But others will say yes. So there is no way to answer this without being biased. Therefore I won't answer this. I'll leave this question blank. Unanswered. Why? This question has an answer. But it will ALWAYS, be opinion based. There is no right, there is no wrong. To someone it's right, to the other it's wrong, etc. The conclusion? There is no solid answer to this question. Only opinions.

[Trunks]

Mine, still stays as no. I ran out of information a long time ago. That's why I stopped.

[LemonRising]

We agree to disagree, like every other debate in history.


Im too tired to reply anyways XD


but lol I think YOUR post ended the discussion, seeing as you replied XD
We both had our closing statements, I see that.




GO GAY MARRIAGE.
(just because it really doesn't affect me and I support that people have weird and/or different and totally sane paths to happiness.)

[Raw!]

You know, me scrolling up and seeing all that block of text. Man what a debate lol. We need to have more of these.

Anyway, I guess since this ended the discussion, this topic will be for commenting on the article, not adding onto the debate.

[LemonRising]

Yeah debate time is over.
My brain is still spitting around like crazy.


I also realized that I DO talk a lot.
ahahaa
I should go apologize to my friends.
No, my mother.
my poor mother.
Actually I'm just really weird with my mother.
I should still apologize.
I scare her.

that is one big BOOK of text.
Raw we should have a talk show.

[Raw!]

Definately, I find that I also talk a lot. This debate just proves it lol. I don't know about our poor viewers in the talk show though, they might be bored to death.

Anyway, we are kind-of straying aside from topic. So I'll go let others comment on this. Instead of us hogging it all to ourselfs. Poor people on GF, they have to read all that block of text just to understand where we are lol.

[rukisuto]

Debating wasn't off topic.
You asked the question "Should it be allowed?".
That's open for debate.

Raw, your gay stereotypes really offend me.
"Who will teach little Timmy to play football and hockey?"
Who are you to say that gay people run around with pink feather boas and man bags all day?
My cousin is gay and he does all the things a 'regular' man would do.

[Trunks]

Debating wasn't off topic.
You asked the question "Should it be allowed?".
That's open for debate.

Raw, your gay stereotypes really offend me.
"Who will teach little Timmy to play football and hockey?"
Who are you to say that gay people run around with pink feather boas and man bags all day?
My cousin is gay and he does all the things a 'regular' man would do.

I think he was referring to two girls, but I guess that's still stereo types and I'm not getting into that..... Girl and Guys are equal... All I have to stay about it.

[Raw!]

I was referring to two woman. You people really like to go off and assume things. Just like you ruki, you said that I say they run around with pink feathers. When did I say that?? Also, what if it's two men and it's a little girl they adopted? It's the same thing as the two woman.

Even though I have said this already, I will say this again. Hopefully this will close the topic once and for all, I am tired of debating this.

Okay here goes:

Even though I don't read the bible, I know that homosexuality is the sin, and I know it says it there. I like gay people okay, they're cool and aren't stupid people, (but some are, just like some straight people you know) even though it's hard to admit, even though you guys feel for it, homosexuality is a sin.

But who the hell am I to give my opinion right? It's the internet, I'm probably going to get flamed down for this, saying "yo u stereotype," etc. But when the bible says it, the Jewish and Christian, you can't seriously say it's stereotype. Please understand this guys, god made a man and a women, not a man and a man. He made them so they could reproduce.

Like I said again, even though it's hard to believe, hard to take in, this is fact.

You know I am sort of neutral on this, but straying more on to the no side. Because it doesn't effect my life, I don't really give a damn. But because it is a sin, I sort of do give a damn.


Anyway, whatever I say isn't going to change anyone's opinion is it? My two cents are done. I spoke my part, and I'm done. Go on ahead and try shooting down some of my stuff, I won't reply.

Edit: My opinion will still stand. You guys can call me narrow-minded, whatever, it's called an opinion. And I don't hate gay people, just their actions.


kthxbai.

[rukisuto]

I was referring to two woman. You people really like to go off and assume things. Just like you ruki, you said that I say they run around with pink feathers. When did I say that?? Also, what if it's two men and it's a little girl they adopted? It's the same thing as the two woman.

I was making a POINT.

kthxbai.

[Trunks]

I was making a POINT.

kthxbai.

How was that a point. He never said that, You made it seem like he thinks Gay men can't play sports.

[rukisuto]

How was that a point. He never said that, You made it seem like he thinks Gay men can't play sports.

I'm not saying he said it in a post, I worded it like that to make an impact.
I was making a point because it sounded like to me that he was talking about gay men.
So I said it to support my point.

[younging94]

.......SHUT THE **** UP AND THE NEXT PERSON WHO UTTERS AND TYPES THE ****ING WORDS OF KTHX BAI IS GETTING PIMP SLAPPED OVER THE NET..

Now...Ruki is right.....and for the little timmy, jimmy, or whatever bullcrap, women can do that too dude...
My got damn mom taught me how to play hockey and she's very feminine (a freaking feminist if you ask me...)
And, if you also go into the fact that most relationships dealing with two women, one female in the relationship is kinda guyish.
So there's your little ****ing father figure right there.
And BS, if my child decides to be gay, im not gonna say o no, please be straight...i want my kid to live his life and im going to try not to make it like mine.

[Kujo]

Ok, i WANT to make another intelligent post on this topic but honestly, after seeing it become this back and forth trash talking heap of crap I think I'll just stay out of it but before I bow out..

My Final Word

Gay marriage, right or wrong should be left up to the individuals. While you or I may be offended, flip the coin over and put yourself in there "FABULOUS" shoes. The debate on gay rights is like trying to argue womans rights to vote back in the day, or slavery even further back. There is and in my opinion always WILL be someone who is offended by something someone else does however, just because something offends someone, doesn't make it wrong. It simply means you and that particular person have different beliefs.

Lastly, Raw, your idea that gay parents always raise there adopted children to be gay is VERY false. I don't have the links to them but there have been studies that show more often than not, children of gay adoption are normally raised straight.


PS: Thank you to both Raw and Ruki. I take great pride in my debating skills. I did it full time in high school and I eventually plan on minoring in it.

[younging94]

I'll bow out too...
*Hugs Kujo*
>_>, your awesome T_T

[Eric]

Thats enough of the fighting...

[Kujo]

I'll bow out too...
*Hugs Kujo*
>_>, your awesome T_T

I know....:laugh:

[LiNuX]

i really thought i replied to this thread a few times.....weird


I'd love to.

1. It's wrong.
2. Breaks the ceremony of marriage.
3. Can't reproduce.
4. If they adopt, they will raise gay children. We need more straight children to be able to reproduce.
5. Not supported by religion
6. Will encourage crazy behaviour.
7. The children need a daddy and a mommy role models.

Should I go on about the reasons why they shouldn't marry?

well regarding that post, this is my response

1. Opinion
2. There are many matrimonial ceremonies, make another one if you have to.3
3. like 7 billion people in the world? I would think its controlling the population, i know someone brought that point out already.
4. Not true, most children does not even want to be like their parents and it'll be wrong if they raise their children as "gay" because you can't really control a person's love life unless you beat them down and tie 'em up.
5. Religion has been overtaken by Science many years ago and many people these days are not very religious, including myself.
6. crazy behavior? lol
7. the children does not need just parent role models, it can be a wrestler

and what I am trying to say is, people are allowed to have options, that's what makes freewill, freewill - that's what humans were given as a birth right and you can't just take that away from any one.

and i hate to wait almost 10 mins cuz my internet acted stupid and went offline

[Trunks]

That's the first time I saw a post that had incorrect grammar in it from linux... I'm going to mark this date down.

[LiNuX]

That's the first time I saw a post that had incorrect grammar in it from linux... I'm going to mark this date down.

lol where's the mistake and in my defense its past 1:30 am - my brain gets a bit dumb after midnite

[Trunks]

4. Not true, most children does not even want to be like their parents


To lazy to quote and stuff, but does not even? I don't think that's right = ) Then another here

7. the children does not need just parent role models

The children does not need just parent role models?
hmmmmm

[LiNuX]

lol - change the "Does" to DO - i kept reading "children" as singular but it is plural - child is singular

heh..i also wrote this while dealing with my server issues

[Trunks]

I'm still keeping this date .... Going to post it in spam forum so I can find it... page 270

[Scott]

lol Gays can already get married over here and I don't have a problem with it.